Lloyd's Motorcycle Performance Center - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 415 Old 03-06-2015, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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I always knew you were good but I didn't know you were THAT good. You can even write upside down!
That same pic posted up fine (upside correctly) on the facebook page... WTF--I blame the mods, it had to be the mods fucking with my post.

After 5 months of what has been a weird winter, 2 weeks of sub zero, then 2 weeks of above freezing rotating basically since October. And virtually no snow to speak of, I am not even sure we got 20" total all winter, it seems we are about to finally see 50* come mid week next week. woohoo- only 6 more weeks until the first trackday event !!!

Looking forward to that, and to warmer weather to ride again.
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Stupid people say stupid things on the internet, so be wary of who those people are. If you solicit advice on the internet, just keep in mind 99% of what you'll receive is not based on fact or science-and likely atleast 95% of it is based on bullshit and bravado regurgitated from some other schlub who also did not experience any of what they claim and are also full of shit. If you don't like my bluntness- too bad. I am not here to please you, so move along, your approval is not desired nor is it needed. So before opening your pie hole and adding more stupidity, perhaps sit back, listen, absorb and learn something. You know that saying, it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
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post #17 of 415 Old 03-06-2015, 02:51 PM
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For sure brother, summer started today with our 37 degree high, then low forties tomorrow ... I'll be starting the bikes and riding around the block. Will be hard to stay off the main roads but I'm always afraid of salt-corrosion in the early season.

Yep ... the temps have been up and down, and the last three weeks of February were brutal.

Minn - uh - SOOO - tuh
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post #18 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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short follow up on the valve clearance post

Why be so precise on these simple adjustments?
In a nutshell; balance, performance and longevity. lets just assume for a second that with perfect machining practices and a zero tolerance level of assembly your 120hp machine is getting that 120hp equally from each cylinder. It would run very smoothly, produce power equally from each cylinder, every power pulse would be exactly the same so acceleration/deceleration forces would be identical; ie the depicted pic it would be 30hp per cylinder. If the balance is thrown off by having some of the valves at the bottom of clearance, some in the middle and some at the top (but all within the clearance spec as allowed by all manufacturers) you could end up with a distribution of say; 31,28,29,28.... Now if you could measure crank harmonics and acceleration/deceleration pulses, heat generation, efficiency and tons of other data it would show an engine that will wear out sooner, produce less overall power and not run as smoothly. Cam timing will be slightly changed, valve lift slightly changed, combustion efficiency slightly changed, it also affects throttle body sync and exhaust scavenging pulses... Now we all know there are tolerances and it is highly unlikely your 120hp engine is so balanced, as each individual part has a tolerance at the manufacturer, each combustion chamber may be slightly different in overall size and more.... But those you nor I can control without pulling the engine apart and going through great efforts to make everything perfectly sized and balanced.... But-- Don't you suppose it makes a big difference to keep those assembly differences to a minimum and not add to the problem by not doing what is possible and easy when one is already in doing the valve adjustment?--This is one performance improvement that costs you nothing extra, just requires a little more effort than "close enough" when doing the valve adjustment service. That is the condensed version; in a nutshell because this discussion could really go on and into much more technical science of how the engine works which would be hard to articulate effectively without diagrams, actual demonstrations and hands on with some engines.

Stupid people say stupid things on the internet, so be wary of who those people are. If you solicit advice on the internet, just keep in mind 99% of what you'll receive is not based on fact or science-and likely atleast 95% of it is based on bullshit and bravado regurgitated from some other schlub who also did not experience any of what they claim and are also full of shit. If you don't like my bluntness- too bad. I am not here to please you, so move along, your approval is not desired nor is it needed. So before opening your pie hole and adding more stupidity, perhaps sit back, listen, absorb and learn something. You know that saying, it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
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post #19 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 07:36 AM
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riverszzr,

I deal with this sort of stuff every day. Holding one tolerance specififation to the tightest possible center of the allowance only makes sense if everything else is dead center..... that's where the term 'double nuts' comes from -- held to .00 of whatever the spec is.

In electronics, it's easy to get the timing of things ridiculously accurate. GPS works because the atomic clocks in all of the satellites are accurate to such a fine point that they have to be compensated for due to the difference in time as a result of the gravity gradient between the surface of the planet and the 100+ miles up that they operate at.

It all comes down to what is 'good enough', for a given situation. It's easy to fall in love with the number of digits past the decimal point, but it's usually an excercise in bragging rights.

How accurate does a wrist watch need to be? Wouldn't within a 10th of a second suffice on a daily basis? How about a timing device at a track? Is 1/100th of a second good?

Instrumentation error from one measuring system to the next is really the maximum accuracy any measurement can claim. That always results in tossing out the least significant digit in a measurement.

I'm sure you are extremely precise in your measurements; and can repeat the same measurement to the same value with great consistency. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't use feeler gauges and torque wrenches to attain a more consistent value every time you made a measurement with the same instrument - practice and experience are in play.

A theoretical excercise:

I'd think that if you personally took a motor and set the valave lash 'double nuts' to the ideal, ran it on a dyno, and then set the same motor up with the valve lashes randomly set all accross the mfg's allowed spec (narrow and wide) and re-ran it on the same dyno in exactly the same conditions.... you could see an extremely small difference in HP.

Your thoughts?
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post #20 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 08:57 AM
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I'm curious how precisely close each injector squirts fuel in relation to the other injectors? I know there are certain tests you can do on injectors but I've still wondered do they all squirt exactly the same throughout the RPM range. Similarly is the volume of air that is injested exactly the same based on the shape of the air box, spark, etc. I do understand what rivers is getting at though. Why not be as precise as you can with the tools you have on the things you can control? I wish I had a set of feeler gauges with more granularity but I haven't been able to come up with a set so I can only get "close" with the set I have, and that's only if I am using them correctly. Measuring tolerances definitely takes some accurate measuring tools, knowledge, experience, practice, and repeatability.

A buddy of mine was talking about how the difference in how you adjust within the tolerances between the intake and the exhaust valves effects performance. For example setting the intake valves to the tight side of center will cause them to open a little sooner and close a little later, and setting the exhaust valves to the loose side of center will causing them to open a little later and close a little sooner, and was telling me how that can effect performance and why. I like learning about this stuff so Rivers, if you have any more detail to add in that area please do.

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Last edited by trackdayhero; 03-07-2015 at 09:34 AM.
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post #21 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 09:35 AM
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I'm curious how precisely close each injector squirts fuel in relation to the other injectors? I know there are certain tests you can do on injectors but I've still wondered do they all squirt exactly the same throughout the RPM range. Similarly is the volume of air that is injested exactly the same based on the shape of the air box, spark, etc. I do understand what rivers is getting at though. Why not be as precise as you can with the tools you have on the things you can control? I wish I had a set of feeler gauges with more granularity but I haven't been able to come up with a set so I can only get "close" with the set I have, and that's only if I am using them correctly. Measuring tolerances definitely takes some accurate measuring tools, knowledge, experience, practice, and repeatability. A buddy of mine was talking about how you can change valve timing based on the difference in how you adjust within the tolerances between the intake and the exhaust valves. Setting the intake valves to the tight side of center and the exhaust valves to the loose side of center for example and how that can effect duration and performance and why.
It all comes down to how finely do you want to split the hair -- there is always more that can be done; it comes down to how much return is there on the investment. I too, get what riverszzr is saying... the answer for me is that the manufacturer has a lot more time and effort sunk into deciding that than I ever will.

Injector timing? Does the manufacturer account for the length of the wires being different between injectors from the ECU? The signals may arrive at the injector at different delays as a result -- this is something that is a concern in circuit board design.

Signals propagate through copper at about 1 picosecond (1x10^-12) an inch. That sort of accuracy probably isn't required, when the rate the injectors open and close may vary by a far greater amount. How exactly does that matter? Without a LOT of research and actual measurement, it's a guess.

Getting the ECU programmed more accurately than the mfg did it, is probably the fastest way to more powrt and better performance. As the end use can ignore all of the environmental BS imposed on them, the charges can be richer, timing more precise, etc. etc.

Indexing cams so they have the best possible overlap, duration, and timing are all desireable things -- I'd expect a few percent change in HP at the rear wheel are possible.

Air flow and resonances in the airbox, intake, exhaust.... the two ways to sort that out are directly related. Trial and error got us from side valve, to overhead valve, to overhead cam, to shim under bucket valve control. Somewhere in the middle of that, when the processing power got high enough, computational fluid dynamics has come into it; those computer models are by this point probably pretty good at estimating how much power a given configuration may produce.

The model will still not exactly match what happens on the dyno -- and that will still not match what happens in actual use. the differences are smaller than they have ever been. But they are still there.

There will always be room for improvement.....
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post #22 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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RJ;
I have actually run numerous bikes on a before and after basis and seen results as much as 10% greater on some of the more neglected, but 3-5% is very common (on 110 hp that can easily be 5-7hp more afterwards)

trackday;

I send out injectors frequently for cleaning/balancing- they come back with a data sheet of before and after. It is very common for them to be 2-8% different in the flow/atomization. Unfortunately it doesn't equate to the same type of improvement in dyno readings, I had a set that seemed terrible and data supported that and when resinstalled- the difference in hp was negligeable, if memeory serves, no gains/losses until past 7k, it was 2 hp through the top of midrange (7-11k) but only 1hp right in the top 3000 rpms(granted it was a different day etc, so there is some variable there). But I can say, it was a noticeable improvement in how smoothly it idled, ran at speed and throttle response was better too- even though the dyno didn't really show a significant difference. CO readings couldn't be discerned as different, but HC was lower by several hundred PPM in most areas.

This is precisely why I emphasized- why not control all you can and be as perfect as possible with what you can control. It costs you nothing except some extra due diligence and a better work ethic.
Valve clearances and throttle body sync are super easy to get exacting numbers for no extra cost.

Cam timing since it was brought up is an area I see varying in huge amounts- often you will see lobe center specs in a service manual to be say... 105/108 and then I can take 10 of those bikes and measure them and not a single one will be there- some might be off by more than a couple degrees, some may have one cam real close the other not so much etc..... (I am not saying the factory spec'd cam timing number is necessary the ideal either, because depending on use and any changes it may well not be the best for you and your bike)
And yes how you set valve clearances will effect the numbers.
That is another area where I have sat down and just kept trying different setting of cam timing til I was blue in the face (no other changes) and seen gains and losses of as much as 5hp (on modern day 600cc bikes)

Stupid people say stupid things on the internet, so be wary of who those people are. If you solicit advice on the internet, just keep in mind 99% of what you'll receive is not based on fact or science-and likely atleast 95% of it is based on bullshit and bravado regurgitated from some other schlub who also did not experience any of what they claim and are also full of shit. If you don't like my bluntness- too bad. I am not here to please you, so move along, your approval is not desired nor is it needed. So before opening your pie hole and adding more stupidity, perhaps sit back, listen, absorb and learn something. You know that saying, it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
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post #23 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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I see people all the time waste money on an slip on or on a power commander and then never do what it takes to benefit form those things.

Why if you are willing to spend thousand(s) on bolt on shit, are people not willing to get the free horsepower that often is more hp than the bolt on shit added?

Looming rhetorical question, everyone will have their own motives for doing what they do.

Stupid people say stupid things on the internet, so be wary of who those people are. If you solicit advice on the internet, just keep in mind 99% of what you'll receive is not based on fact or science-and likely atleast 95% of it is based on bullshit and bravado regurgitated from some other schlub who also did not experience any of what they claim and are also full of shit. If you don't like my bluntness- too bad. I am not here to please you, so move along, your approval is not desired nor is it needed. So before opening your pie hole and adding more stupidity, perhaps sit back, listen, absorb and learn something. You know that saying, it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
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post #24 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 10:37 AM
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Thanks for the insight. As I said, the consistency with which you get 'under the hood' is exactly why I would be willing to part with my cash to have you tune my bike/car/soup de jour. The average weekend warrior is going to do more damage than good, just in all the other sh*t that can and will go wrong in the process of getting to that (in your case) 'easily' attainable 3-5% gain.

Please understand I am in no way being disrespectful of what you can obviously accomplish. If the time and money are there, given that every other process that has to be done to get to shimming the valves is done with equal care and precision, gains can be made.

Dyno time is easy when you own a dyno. Same as milling parts -- once you have the experience and the tools, the actual job is less of a problem. At some point it becomes cost prohibitive to chase that 3-5% HP gain, when it takes the time and money for all the other stuff to get to it.

I know that Kawasaki did a decent job, in stacking all those tolerances, and material choices, to get the bike I bought to where it is. The folks who thought out how long it will take before things go sideways know what they are doing, as well. (except for the SOB responsible for the charging system -- he cut it too tight, IMHO)

I have to balance the desire to modify against the impact that will have, on reliability. Performance always comes at a cost.

For me, the balance is best suited by changing as little as possible, so the reliability stays high. Were I to race, the equation would be different, I am sure. I'd weigh a lot less than I do, now. I'd be in better physical shape so my endurance would hold up.

I see very little value in ekeing out more HP from what is aruably aleady a highly tuned engine. (13:1 compression, with a 13K+ redline?) OEM, this thing is making the equivlent of 140 HP per liter..... that would be a 700 HP 300 cubic inch engine -- how long do those last?

The return for my dollars amounts to more tickets, and a potentially damaged engine. My 0-60 times are already quick enough, the bike handles better than I can make use of on the street (where I ride), and stops just about as well as I could ask for.
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post #25 of 415 Old 03-07-2015, 02:16 PM
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I would probably be better off having RIvers work on my stuff but I just enjoy doing stuff myself, even if sometimes it doesn't come out perfect the first time. I enjoy figuring out where I went wrong and improve for the next time. But then, I have actually been a mechanic for a good part of my life so I already have most of the basics that get non-mechanics into trouble quickly. I enjoy working on my own stuff but I don't really have a desire to work on anyone elses stuff. I would be happy to let them use my tools and sit through something with them but ultimately I don't want to be responsible for fucking up someone elses shit. Not that I would of course, fighter pilots used to have to put a lot of trust in my work.

My philosophy is that if you do it by the book you really can't go wrong. Could it possibly be done better? Maybe, but more often than not when people do something that isn't by the book it is much worse than if they had done it by the book. It never ceases to amaze me that people will follow a youtube video of someone doing a particular task for the first time, and doing it *wrong* no less, over just following the procedure in the service manual. You'd think the manual was written in Greek. People won't even look at it. Amazing. Personally, I find it extremely easy to follow.
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Last edited by trackdayhero; 03-07-2015 at 02:23 PM.
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post #26 of 415 Old 03-09-2015, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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trackday, I do have a customer in Chicago who makes the trek to Apple Valley every spring. He surely could haul your bike too.... hint hint, wink wink...lol

Rj- re your post #26

The tolerances is part of the problem I speak of, and while they are acceptable for acceptable performance, they are not acceptable for exemplary performance

Your comment on "return per dollar"......... I am absolutely talking about FREE performance just by being more exacting and more conscientious of what and how one does routing maintenance.. It is free, one just has to put in the effort and time to do it.

No doubt we could continue down the rabbit hole and some will understand many will dismiss it..... I at this point don't really much care for those who dismiss it and have no time for those people.
One of those cases where "I know what I know, and I know it works because I have done it numerous times with real testing" which is far more than any of the naysayers can lay claim to.
~ not putting you in either category~ but I could list off dozens of forum members who clearly fall in the lack of caring attitude category, because they know not what they don't know and never will because they find life simpler to believe a lie than to actually try and understand the truth.

Stupid people say stupid things on the internet, so be wary of who those people are. If you solicit advice on the internet, just keep in mind 99% of what you'll receive is not based on fact or science-and likely atleast 95% of it is based on bullshit and bravado regurgitated from some other schlub who also did not experience any of what they claim and are also full of shit. If you don't like my bluntness- too bad. I am not here to please you, so move along, your approval is not desired nor is it needed. So before opening your pie hole and adding more stupidity, perhaps sit back, listen, absorb and learn something. You know that saying, it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
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post #27 of 415 Old 03-09-2015, 07:23 PM
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Appleton is 6 hours and 45 minutes from me, but Chicago is 4 hours and 30 minutes.

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post #28 of 415 Old 03-10-2015, 03:50 PM
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I would probably be better off having RIvers work on my stuff but I just enjoy doing stuff myself, even if sometimes it doesn't come out perfect the first time. I enjoy figuring out where I went wrong and improve for the next time. But then, I have actually been a mechanic for a good part of my life so I already have most of the basics that get non-mechanics into trouble quickly. I enjoy working on my own stuff but I don't really have a desire to work on anyone elses stuff. I would be happy to let them use my tools and sit through something with them but ultimately I don't want to be responsible for fucking up someone elses shit. Not that I would of course, fighter pilots used to have to put a lot of trust in my work.

My philosophy is that if you do it by the book you really can't go wrong. Could it possibly be done better? Maybe, but more often than not when people do something that isn't by the book it is much worse than if they had done it by the book. It never ceases to amaze me that people will follow a youtube video of someone doing a particular task for the first time, and doing it *wrong* no less, over just following the procedure in the service manual. You'd think the manual was written in Greek. People won't even look at it. Amazing. Personally, I find it extremely easy to follow.
I love my service manual! I don't understand why people won't look at it either.
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post #29 of 415 Old 03-13-2015, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Fricking ma Kaw corp.

I ordered up 40- 2.925 shms and only 6 arrived, enough to button up that bike last week, but now yet another fricking C14 in need of............. you guessed it, 10- 2.925 shims and all I have is 3.
Seriously how the fuck can they only have 6 in the entire USA warehouse network? and worse yet not be able to tell me any idea when I could expect the rest.

I got sick of waiting, Went to Honda and ordered 50 of them with overnight shipping, I'll have them Monday morning, well some of them anyways about half are in stock between 3 warehouses.
Sadly I have yet another C14 scheduled for next Wednesday----I am sick of C14's- they absolutely suck to work on. Blast to ride, suck to do maintenance on, come to think of it, there is not a bike on my price list that costs more to do than the C14.

Stupid people say stupid things on the internet, so be wary of who those people are. If you solicit advice on the internet, just keep in mind 99% of what you'll receive is not based on fact or science-and likely atleast 95% of it is based on bullshit and bravado regurgitated from some other schlub who also did not experience any of what they claim and are also full of shit. If you don't like my bluntness- too bad. I am not here to please you, so move along, your approval is not desired nor is it needed. So before opening your pie hole and adding more stupidity, perhaps sit back, listen, absorb and learn something. You know that saying, it is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
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post #30 of 415 Old 03-13-2015, 07:30 PM
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Good shit riverszzr. I wish I lived closer would love for you to work on my bike. I cant trust the mechanics out here for shit.
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