R6 Not Starting (sorry for the non-zx6r question) - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 44 Old 05-12-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by NitrusReigns View Post
We have no lights or anything, but we have power to the gauges and no warning lights after the initialization sequence.

The bike has wiring that goes to connectors to the things pictured below which I believe are coils and then to the spark plugs...is that what you're asking about?

You have in your hand a stick coil.... I understand how they work, more or less -- because they have to work just like a traditional coil. When you supply the coil with a source of voltage, current flows through it, in the direction of the spark plug. As it does so, EMF is generated in the from of a field that surrounds the conductor. As long as the current is flowing, the field builds to some level -- it is the flow of electricity that maintains the field.

When the flow of electricity is stopped, that field collapses in an instant. When it collapses, all of the strength of the field is converted to Voltage. It's easy for that Voltage to reach 25,000 Volts, but only for an extremely short time...... it's the exact same amount of energy, released in 1/20,000 of the time it took to store it up in the form of that field.

The Voltage is so high, the potential can arc across a gap..... the spark plug gap between the electrode and the ground. A nice big fat blue spark is a very energetic spark, compared to a weak orange one.

Old style distributor ignition systems used to use breaker point systems to allow the flow of electricity into the single coil while the points were in contact....... 'breaking' the connection on the 6 or 12 VDC feed, is what made the field collapse, and discharge into the 'high tension' circuit.... through the center electrode in the distributor cap, across the rotor, and then down to the spark plug at the end of the high tension lead.

First improvement was to get rid of the contacts because they wore away over time... that was the start of 'solid state' ignitions. Transistors replaced the breaker points, but still relied on a single coil, and the rest of the spark distribution system. Timing of the spark was still driven by the gear set run from the crankshaft of the motor.

As electronics have become less and less expensive, and smaller, many of the functions can be made smaller and more reliable....

Somewhere along the way, somebody figured out that the shorter you can make the high tension/very high voltage part of the path, the less expensive the cables up to that point became. You need very little insulation on a 12 V cable..... far less, than on one carrying 25,000 V.

With the stick coil, I think all you can do is as mentioned above...... place the electrode of the plug near the frame, and turn the motor over and see if you get a spark from the plug installed in that stick coil.

I suspect that the ECU provides that stick coil a 12V signal for a certain period of time, then shuts it off so the coils' field collapses, and discharges through the plug. Because the ECU simply needs to know where the crankshaft is, and can then do all of the math to make sure the right plug is going to discharge at the correct timing for best power (all through referencing a 'look up' table in it's Erasable Programmable, Read Only Memory (EPROM)). the 25 KV spark energy is only going through the stick coil to the spark plug itself.... well insulated with heavy plastic, and buried inside the valve cover.

Safe, and nearly fool proof.

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #17 of 44 Old 05-13-2017, 08:38 AM
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This shouldn't be that difficult.

Check for spark by removing a plug, putting it in the coil and grounding it against the engine or frame. Turn the bike over. Spark should be bright blue and make a snap sound. If yellow spark you have an issue.

If no spark (likely) confirm that you have power to coils. After that you are looking at wiring, ECU, or pulse generator/crank sensor.

If you have had the motor apart I would actually start with the pulse gen as for whatever reason people still find a way to not install those correctly.

Try that and get back.
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post #18 of 44 Old 05-13-2017, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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R6 Not Starting (sorry for the non-zx6r question)

...

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Last edited by NitrusReigns; 05-13-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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post #19 of 44 Old 05-13-2017, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc995 View Post
The suspense is killing me! Ground a connected spark plug already and crank the engine ... is there spark or not?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ2112 View Post
You have in your hand a stick coil.... I understand how they work, more or less -- because they have to work just like a traditional coil. When you supply the coil with a source of voltage, current flows through it, in the direction of the spark plug. As it does so, EMF is generated in the from of a field that surrounds the conductor. As long as the current is flowing, the field builds to some level -- it is the flow of electricity that maintains the field.



When the flow of electricity is stopped, that field collapses in an instant. When it collapses, all of the strength of the field is converted to Voltage. It's easy for that Voltage to reach 25,000 Volts, but only for an extremely short time...... it's the exact same amount of energy, released in 1/20,000 of the time it took to store it up in the form of that field.



The Voltage is so high, the potential can arc across a gap..... the spark plug gap between the electrode and the ground. A nice big fat blue spark is a very energetic spark, compared to a weak orange one.



Old style distributor ignition systems used to use breaker point systems to allow the flow of electricity into the single coil while the points were in contact....... 'breaking' the connection on the 6 or 12 VDC feed, is what made the field collapse, and discharge into the 'high tension' circuit.... through the center electrode in the distributor cap, across the rotor, and then down to the spark plug at the end of the high tension lead.



First improvement was to get rid of the contacts because they wore away over time... that was the start of 'solid state' ignitions. Transistors replaced the breaker points, but still relied on a single coil, and the rest of the spark distribution system. Timing of the spark was still driven by the gear set run from the crankshaft of the motor.



As electronics have become less and less expensive, and smaller, many of the functions can be made smaller and more reliable....



Somewhere along the way, somebody figured out that the shorter you can make the high tension/very high voltage part of the path, the less expensive the cables up to that point became. You need very little insulation on a 12 V cable..... far less, than on one carrying 25,000 V.



With the stick coil, I think all you can do is as mentioned above...... place the electrode of the plug near the frame, and turn the motor over and see if you get a spark from the plug installed in that stick coil.



I suspect that the ECU provides that stick coil a 12V signal for a certain period of time, then shuts it off so the coils' field collapses, and discharges through the plug. Because the ECU simply needs to know where the crankshaft is, and can then do all of the math to make sure the right plug is going to discharge at the correct timing for best power (all through referencing a 'look up' table in it's Erasable Programmable, Read Only Memory (EPROM)). the 25 KV spark energy is only going through the stick coil to the spark plug itself.... well insulated with heavy plastic, and buried inside the valve cover.



Safe, and nearly fool proof.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
This shouldn't be that difficult.



Check for spark by removing a plug, putting it in the coil and grounding it against the engine or frame. Turn the bike over. Spark should be bright blue and make a snap sound. If yellow spark you have an issue.



If no spark (likely) confirm that you have power to coils. After that you are looking at wiring, ECU, or pulse generator/crank sensor.



If you have had the motor apart I would actually start with the pulse gen as for whatever reason people still find a way to not install those correctly.



Try that and get back.


Just confirmed that there is no spark...

So, how do I confirm that the coils are getting power and what else should I check next?

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post #20 of 44 Old 05-13-2017, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, so I just disconnected the coil and connected my multimeter to the two leads feeding it. Before the ignition was on I had basically 0VDC and with the ignition on, I had about 40VDC.

I assume that means I have power to the coils, right? So now I'm completely lost...

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post #21 of 44 Old 05-13-2017, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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See for customization: Eva Thread
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post #22 of 44 Old 05-13-2017, 01:51 PM
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I have to think the ECU provides a ground, to fire the stick coil.... tough to see this very short duration low.

If you can't get a plug to spark outside of the engine, it's likely the ECU is missing one of the requirements.

Kill switch, side stand, clutch, crankshaft position sensor, possibly an oil pressure sensor..... you mentioned no warning lights on the dash......the low oil pressure warning should be there until the bike starts.....

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #23 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ2112 View Post
I have to think the ECU provides a ground, to fire the stick coil.... tough to see this very short duration low.



If you can't get a plug to spark outside of the engine, it's likely the ECU is missing one of the requirements.



Kill switch, side stand, clutch, crankshaft position sensor, possibly an oil pressure sensor..... you mentioned no warning lights on the dash......the low oil pressure warning should be there until the bike starts.....


Since I've confirmed that most of these are wired properly, should I just make sure they all have power when they are supposed to?

Anyone know if the switches should be open or closed in order to start the bike? I'm assuming they are probably all normally open switches and closed means it's activated. Does that seem right?

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post #24 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 04:31 AM
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There is likely also a tip over switch on the bike somewhere..... Usually mounted in or around the tail section. If that is not aligned properly, it could be telling the ECU the bike is on it's side. That kills the spark as well.

I'm presuming the battery is recently, fully charged?

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #25 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 04:40 AM Thread Starter
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Battery is new and fully charged.

The wiring diagrams don't indicate the presence of any tip over sensors. Already looked for that

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post #26 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 04:45 AM
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At this point, I would clean and re-seat every electrical connector you can find. Something is probably not seated fully, or a wire is broken inside the connector. Look at the fuse block and make sure it's not corroded and nasty particularly on the back side that you normally don't see. Work your way along the entire wiring harness, looking for melted, chaffed, burnt, broken insulation.....anything that might be grounding out a signal. Pay attention to the points where the harness is supposed to be tied to the frame (grounds). They need to be free of corrosion as well.

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #27 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 04:47 AM
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The other question I haven't thought to ask....... have you personally ever seen this bike in a running state?

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #28 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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The other question I haven't thought to ask....... have you personally ever seen this bike in a running state?


No! This is a complete frankenstein bike. The engine, frame, wiring harness, forks, and swingarm are all from separate bikes. I have video of the engine running, but everything else is pretty much unknown.

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post #29 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 10:07 AM
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No! This is a complete frankenstein bike. The engine, frame, wiring harness, forks, and swingarm are all from separate bikes. I have video of the engine running, but everything else is pretty much unknown.
Do you know if the harness is compatible with the engine?

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #30 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Harness and engine are from the same model bike. Had to make minor modifications to match up with the hand controls that are from a different bike, but everything else has worked out fine with the harness.

All connectivity tests we did as we connected components were fine. Don't know a ton other than that.

Guide Me Waking, oh Lord, and Guard Me Sleeping that awake I may walk with Christ and asleep I may rest in peace

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