R6 Not Starting (sorry for the non-zx6r question) - Page 3 - ZX6R Forum
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post #31 of 44 Old 05-14-2017, 06:20 PM
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First, thanks for taking the time to do the project.

On your problem, check the manual. Confirm crank sensor is working.
Also on my bike I have a cam sensor, confirm it's working.
Get on the R6 forum, ask them for some help as in GOOD WORKING PARTS to swap out to eliminate items.
Can you send me the PDF of the electrical section, and troubleshooting section of your bike.
Since your getting voltage to the coil and not getting spark the ECU is either bad or isn't getting something it wants to fire a cylinder.
Should be able to prove the sensors they will be open, close readings on the ohm meter.

Lastly, because of what your doing. I would without one seconds hesitation contact a local service department. Tell them what your doing.
If you would be happy to post up anytime, anywhere that the SO and SO dealer supports these kids. This should be a pretty simple project, you don't want there labor just some phone time. Great community relations and warm fuzzy's for all involved.
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post #32 of 44 Old 05-18-2017, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post
First, thanks for taking the time to do the project.

On your problem, check the manual. Confirm crank sensor is working.
Also on my bike I have a cam sensor, confirm it's working.
Get on the R6 forum, ask them for some help as in GOOD WORKING PARTS to swap out to eliminate items.
Can you send me the PDF of the electrical section, and troubleshooting section of your bike.
Since your getting voltage to the coil and not getting spark the ECU is either bad or isn't getting something it wants to fire a cylinder.
Should be able to prove the sensors they will be open, close readings on the ohm meter.

Lastly, because of what your doing. I would without one seconds hesitation contact a local service department. Tell them what your doing.
If you would be happy to post up anytime, anywhere that the SO and SO dealer supports these kids. This should be a pretty simple project, you don't want there labor just some phone time. Great community relations and warm fuzzy's for all involved.
So, most of these things I have actually tried.

I have the manual and have been using it extensively. However, either I'm missing something (definitely possible) or there isn't really any instruction on how to check whether sensors are behaving properly. And I don't know enough about how they work to do it without any instruction.

The R6 forum is somewhere I've spent some time, but they are neither as active nor as helpful as you lot. So in terms of getting help there, I've essentially struck out: R6 Forum Thread

My thought was exactly the same as what you are proposing - if the coils are getting power, but the plugs aren't sparking, then there must be something causing them not to receive the go-ahead signal - either a sensor telling the ECU not to spark or the ECU itself screwing up. Is that basically what you're getting at? Anyone care to correct that impression?

With the various sensors, any way to know whether they are supposed to be open or closed in order to allow starting?

I have contacted every service shop in town and absolutely nobody has been willing to come in and teach me/my kids how to troubleshoot our way through this, let me bring them things to test for us, anything...nobody at any of the repair shops has been willing to donate anything at all including minor supplies, time, service, anything...probably the most disappointing part of this project for me. We have been met with such generosity elsewhere and to be completely shut down in this area is somewhat depressing...

What I have attached is the diagram for the continuity that all the switches should have. Most of the troubleshooting in the manual is related to this diagram. However, I don't know how to test continuity with my multimeter - I'm not sure what they mean by "continuity." Does that just mean that there should be little to no resistance there?

Again, thanks to all for all the help so far and thanks in advance for the help that's still coming!
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post #33 of 44 Old 05-18-2017, 02:35 PM
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Yes, you have my thoughts.

What I normally see is a NO (normally open) when the sensor hits it will show NC (normally closed) indication.
What is hard is most times your getting a magnetic pulse from the metal bit that gets close to the position bump. SO on the exhaust cam in the 6rr you see part of the cam that comes close to the sensor. Would be same on the main crank.
The ECU see's the change in resistance (both cams move so fast you never get a full open or close, more like a pulse.
See if you can dig up an O-Scope. Oscilloscope in high school the electronics class had several. You should see either a sine wave or a square wave from each sensor.

Are the injectors firing, (sorry if you said yes before)

I can't get the manual, need either 5 or 10 posts it seems to get it.

Check this out,, this applies to us. My bike has a 2 wire cam sensor.
Part 1 -The Basics of Crank and Cam Sensors and How to Test Them
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post #34 of 44 Old 05-21-2017, 05:40 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, you have my thoughts.

What I normally see is a NO (normally open) when the sensor hits it will show NC (normally closed) indication.
What is hard is most times your getting a magnetic pulse from the metal bit that gets close to the position bump. SO on the exhaust cam in the 6rr you see part of the cam that comes close to the sensor. Would be same on the main crank.
The ECU see's the change in resistance (both cams move so fast you never get a full open or close, more like a pulse.
See if you can dig up an O-Scope. Oscilloscope in high school the electronics class had several. You should see either a sine wave or a square wave from each sensor.

Are the injectors firing, (sorry if you said yes before)

I can't get the manual, need either 5 or 10 posts it seems to get it.

Check this out,, this applies to us. My bike has a 2 wire cam sensor.
Part 1 -The Basics of Crank and Cam Sensors and How to Test Them
I'm sure we've got an o-scope somewhere, but I don't actually think this bike has cam sensors, now that I'm looking at it.

No injectors because the bike is the carbureted, but fuel is getting delivered just fine.

I'm going to try to attach some pages for the manual just so we can all be clear about what I'm looking at and talking about. I'm a little confused about how I would test a couple of things, but we'll come back to that when I get some manual pages on here in a more user-friendly manner.

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post #35 of 44 Old 05-21-2017, 06:02 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, so here's my difficulty. We've troubleshooted (troubleshot?) up through step 9 in the pictures above. Everything has been fine so far and now we are on to testing a bunch of switches. Most of them look pretty straightforward in terms of testing continuity, but some I'm a little confused on. It's mostly the ones that just have a simple switch that I'm not sure what I should be looking for.

For instance, the neutral switch, should I just unplug it and hook my leads up in series with the wire? If so, should there be connectivity when it's in neutral or in gear?

Any insight into what I should be doing here would be helpful. Thanks


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post #36 of 44 Old 05-21-2017, 08:57 AM
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Sorry,, I ASSUMED it was injected.

For your question. Looking at that, sure looks like the switch makes a path for the LED/Bulb when your in neutral.

SO if you disconnect the wire to the bike, testing the switch you would have an OPEN to ground when in gear.
When in neutral, I would expect a short.

page 8-11.. seems to be missing a legend. Way to many references that have no nomenclature. Like 13,29,28

Do the switch's. Rule them out.

You do in fact have one cam sensor. It's the crank. The Pickup Coil is a crank sensor.
You have verified its working and gapped properly. That's the trigger for spark, replaced the old points.
SO step 4 checks out?
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post #37 of 44 Old 05-21-2017, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry,, I ASSUMED it was injected.



For your question. Looking at that, sure looks like the switch makes a path for the LED/Bulb when your in neutral.



SO if you disconnect the wire to the bike, testing the switch you would have an OPEN to ground when in gear.

When in neutral, I would expect a short.



page 8-11.. seems to be missing a legend. Way to many references that have no nomenclature. Like 13,29,28



Do the switch's. Rule them out.



You do in fact have one cam sensor. It's the crank. The Pickup Coil is a crank sensor.

You have verified its working and gapped properly. That's the trigger for spark, replaced the old points.

SO step 4 checks out?

Ok, I'll check the remaining switches based on the idea that the ones not clearly labeled should be open normally and shorted when "active" if that makes sense.

Page 8-11 is just the stuff for the ignition system, so, you are correct, there's a bunch with no legend. It's there's only legend for the stuff that's not grayed out.

I did not realize that's what a pickup coil was. Makes sense based on where it is. Only thing I've verified about the pickup coil is that the resistance is within the correct range.

For step 4, related to the plugs, I've verified that they are gapped properly and are brand new and they are not sparking against the frame.

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post #38 of 44 Old 05-21-2017, 10:35 AM
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Keep at it,, starting to look point at the CDI if the switch's are good and the crank pickup is good.
On my Honda, when the crank is right, the pickup goes from open to a short. (I think, worked on it years ago)
Completes the circuit and the coil fires.

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post #39 of 44 Old 05-25-2017, 07:23 AM Thread Starter
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Alright, so at this point, everything has been tested and everything is good with one exception.

The Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay only actually tested out properly about half the time. It is the relay that seems to control a number of things and it appears to be working perfectly fine for some (like the fuel pump), but the connectivity test only passed about half the time. I found one on eBay for $40, so I'm going to go ahead and replace it and see if that makes a difference. If that doesn't do anything for me, then it looks like I'll be replacing the ECU.

I'm trying to find someone in the area that has the same bike and might be willing to come over and let us borrow both of those parts real quick to test them out on our bike, but no luck so far. I guess we'll see where that goes.

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post #40 of 44 Old 05-25-2017, 08:18 AM
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A relay is simply a remote control switch.... you could manually bypass the relay, if you are trying to validate it as root cause. That would give you another check for whether you have the correct faulty part ID'd.
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post #41 of 44 Old 05-25-2017, 10:14 AM
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yep,, what RJ2112 said.

From the area your talking about I would NOT expect a high load being switched so they are using it for a safety most likely.
You should be able to just hot wire across the contacts to confirm if it's being a problem.

Then a KNOWN working ECU would be next.


Last thought, you said everything checked out. I would ask at the device or all the way back to the ECU.
The device could be working, but if the ECU isn't getting the information and while your at it. Make sure your getting voltage back to the ECU.
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post #42 of 44 Old 05-25-2017, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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A relay is simply a remote control switch.... you could manually bypass the relay, if you are trying to validate it as root cause. That would give you another check for whether you have the correct faulty part ID'd.


Part of my problem here is a moderate lack of knowledge. I understand how a relay works and if this one had 3 wires, I'd know how to bypass it and check, but it's got 7, so I'm assuming it's some kind of multiple relay thing I don't understand or have any familiarity with.

If you can give me some thoughts on that, I'm game to hear them, but I'm at a bit of a loss right now

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post #43 of 44 Old 05-25-2017, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
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Part of my problem here is a moderate lack of knowledge. I understand how a relay works and if this one had 3 wires, I'd know how to bypass it and check, but it's got 7, so I'm assuming it's some kind of multiple relay thing I don't understand or have any familiarity with.

If you can give me some thoughts on that, I'm game to hear them, but I'm at a bit of a loss right now
Your getting there.
Most understand and use relays to power bigger things. You can use tiny wires to trigger a starter motor, horn, lights.
BUT you can also use a relay as a safety. In fact multiple safety's.
Looking at one pic you gave there just testing a Diode, positive meter leads one direction, then the other.
Diodes can be a switch. So make sure you do that test.

Did find What Does The Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay Do 2001 R6 | Motorcycles Repair Manual Download and Reviews

The link they give is http://www.tdm-trx.nl/Manuals/5PS_03...nual_Suppl.pdf

Looking at it. Page 5..
If this is close to what you have, below the mid page switch 5 engine kill switch is your circuit.
There using the neutral and clutch side stand (8,9,10) switch's to then pull in ONE relay. See the diode 7, would bet that's what there having you test.
Switch 11 is your starter button. IF the relay isn't pulled in you can't turn over the bike.

BUT,, you said
Quote:
engine turns over without any trouble whatsoever
This isn't your problem.

Spark isn't this circuit. I'll look over some more information. Maybe give you a direction to head.
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post #44 of 44 Old 05-25-2017, 06:59 PM
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I'm sorry,, what year is it.. R6,


06' 07' R6 has no spark ? - Yamaha R6 Forum: YZF-R6 Forums

R6 = no spark | Visordown (immobilizer,,, make sure jumper is in place)


Seems your not the only one.
Yamaha R6 Forum: YZF-R6 Forums - Search Results for turns over NO spark
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