Braking in a turn explained. - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 05:33 PM
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This guy grabbed a little too much front brake and is running negative rake:


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post #17 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 05:37 PM
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Wait a minute.... hold on. For the people that just finished up their first ever season... all I have been told everywhere is to pretend you have no brakes when mid lean. Hell, I thought rear brake in a turn meant an automatic lowside. I have never felt comfortable when I get on the brakes in a turn. The bike just feels unhappy, if that makes any sense. My little tumble in November was due to front braking in a turn. Are you guys saying that slow front brake plus more lean angle equals safe? I always thought the only thing keeping you from falling over in a lean was the centrifugal force due to speed. That and an increased contact patch in the rear due to acceleration. This new concept is something I simply don't understand.

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post #18 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 05:42 PM
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It's pretty basic really and I think Nick explains it quite well. Basically the higher the lean angle the less brake you give it. The tires only have "x" amount of grip and it can be divided evenly by brake and lean. Also you have to be "smooth" and gradual, no sudden inputs on either the brakes or the gas. If you have 50% lean on the front you can go up to 50% brake. If you have 90% lean you can only go 10% on the brake, etc. And treat each tire independently as the percentages could be different because the rear tire also has an engine hooked to it that can act as either a brake or an accelerator. It's also going to be lighter when braking because the weight shifts to the front so the amount of grip is going to be less which means you can't give it as much brake at any given lean angle. I think all of this comes naturally the more you ride and practice, especially on the track. You're going to find that braking is just as important as acceleration and lines when it comes to dropping your lap times. The closer you can push your bike to the edge of grip 100% of the time the faster you are going to be, assuming your lines and apexes and body position are correct.

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post #19 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibekman View Post
Wait a minute.... hold on. For the people that just finished up their first ever season... all I have been told everywhere is to pretend you have no brakes when mid lean. Hell, I thought rear brake in a turn meant an automatic lowside. I have never felt comfortable when I get on the brakes in a turn. The bike just feels unhappy, if that makes any sense. My little tumble in November was due to front braking in a turn. Are you guys saying that slow front brake plus more lean angle equals safe? I always thought the only thing keeping you from falling over in a lean was the centrifugal force due to speed. That and an increased contact patch in the rear due to acceleration. This new concept is something I simply don't understand.
Read the 2nd post a few more times then go for a ride.

Braking in a corner is perfectly fine as long as you don't stab it. I do it almost every ride.
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post #20 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 05:47 PM
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Sometimes if I'm leaned over as far as I'll go ill use a tiny bit of front brake to scrub speed. Barely upsets the chassis.
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post #21 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 07:11 PM
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Braking = the hardest and most sophisticated thing ever when it comes to racing.
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post #22 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 07:31 PM
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can't brake during a turn confused me as much as push right, lean right, go right.
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post #23 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradM View Post
How do you use your rear brake if you're cranked over to the right?
I'm still working it out.

Honestly I was more like you, Very little rear brake, In the corners my toe hardly went near the rear.

But talking to Mark he has convinced me that its easer to use the rear.
(for speed/line adjustments) That means a soft touch on the rear.

Now Iv been trying out this technique & it does have merits.
I'm still perfecting it.

The advantage it has over the front is as you stated "The front stands the bike up"
& frankly Id rather lose the rear than the front, Iv lost the rear a few times over the years & was able to recover.
Iv never lost the front, & I don't think its recoverable. (yeah Iv seen the motogp boys do it, but I'm not at that level)

Now don't get me wrong, I'm still 80-90% on the front brakes approaching the corner.
& I'm saying do most if not all your braking before the corner.
Then adjust with the rear.

Someone said are you supposed to brake leaned over into a corner,
The answer is as stated in the book, You only have X amount of traction,
& when leaned over on the smaller shoulder of the tire your asking more from it, A at a point when its loaded more.

So the answer is Yes,> As long as the tire still has traction to give you<.
Does your tire still have traction to give??
For most of us the answer again is yes. But thats the edge of the envelope were all looking for.
However I'm sure some of you are closer than the rest of us.
Does anyone remember the thread where rear tires were posted up with rubber chewed up right to the edge??
(But that was not from braking, it was from hard cornering)
Fact is you can brake right to the apex, If your careful.

Now for the record, If anyone thinks Iv said anything that disagrees with Nick?
Thats wrong, I completely agree, Read the whole book & Code's too.
Both of em. Or is it 3 now?

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Last edited by oldninjadude; 12-13-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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post #24 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 07:57 PM
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With the tires I run on the track I don't actually get to the edge of either the front or the rear. I would probably be dragging the side of the lowers and still not be at the edge. The tires I run actually have a larger contact patch leaned over than they do at vertical, quite a bit more. Of course with track tires you run much lower pressures which also increases contact patch. Plus when you slowly load up the tire you increase the size of that contact patch and increase the amount of grip ("x") that is available. It's actually quite amazing how much brake (front and rear) you can get at a good amount of lean before it starts to break traction. I actually can feel both the front and rear get loose at high lean when braking (and accelerating) when riding on the track and I try to keep it close to that point but not at that point. You can't do that with just any tire though, it helps to have good tires that give you that kind of feedback before they really let go.

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post #25 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 07:59 PM
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Trail braking people. Research it and apply it on the track. You'll be able to go deeper into turns with more stability
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post #26 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradM View Post
Sometimes if I'm leaned over as far as I'll go ill use a tiny bit of front brake to scrub speed. Barely upsets the chassis.
See here is where I'm retraining myself to use the rear.
It don't stand the bike up & if it does start to break lose?

Well Iv not got that far yet But Mark tells me to gas it & go.
My instinct would be to let up a sec & then gas it.

This for me is hard street riding(back roads) not the track, But I think the same principles apply.

............................................SKCUS-ESOR.............................................. .....
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post #27 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdayhero View Post
With the tires I run on the track I don't actually get to the edge of either the front or the rear. I would probably be dragging the side of the lowers and still not be at the edge. The tires I run actually have a larger contact patch leaned over than they do at vertical, quite a bit more. Of course with track tires you run much lower pressures which also increases contact patch. Plus when you slowly load up the tire you increase the size of that contact patch and increase the amount of grip ("x") that is available. It's actually quite amazing how much brake (front and rear) you can get at a good amount of lean before it starts to break traction. I actually can feel both the front and rear get loose at high lean when braking (and accelerating) when riding on the track and I try to keep it close to that point but not at that point. You can't do that with just any tire though, it helps to have good tires that give you that kind of feedback before they really let go.
Right, running lower PSI's help this too.
I feel the rear get loose a lot, But the front is still a bit iffy to me.
As Iv said never had it break loose or felt it was getting ready to.

In the past I would rush the corners, Often trail brake right up to the apex.
My front tires would wear down on the shoulders from this.
I would have good tread in the center, & none on the shoulder.

Iv changed to braking sooner,= smoother = faster.

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post #28 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldninjadude View Post
See here is where I'm retraining myself to use the rear.
It don't stand the bike up & if it does start to break lose?

Well Iv not got that far yet But Mark tells me to gas it & go.
My instinct would be to let up a sec & then gas it.

This for me is hard street riding(back roads) not the track, But I think the same principles apply.

Even if I wanted to use the rear I couldn't. In a right hand corner my toe would scrape and in a left hand corner I would have to shift my lower body to reach the pedal.
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post #29 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:34 PM
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Just do this:

Moto GP Superbike slide - YouTube

Strider likes this.

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post #30 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:38 PM
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