Braking in a turn explained. - Page 3 - ZX6R Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:39 PM
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For the sake of not cluttering the sticky's area...we should merge threads...

Controlling Your Controls: Braking

CCS EX
More gas, less brake
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post #32 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 08:40 PM
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I found this video helpful, they talk about alot of other techniques and they are talking track techniques but they discuss this topic and I think it could help everyone, well it helped me...

Ride Like Rossi - YZF-R6 - Part 1 - YouTube

Ride Like Rossi - YZF-R6 - Part 2 - YouTube

RIde Like Rossi Video by Ricky - Myspace Video

Sorry not sure which link worked so I put up a few and I assume this is a repost so my bad in advance.

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post #33 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ConradM View Post
Even if I wanted to use the rear I couldn't. In a right hand corner my toe would scrape.
I'm not visualizing how thats possible, ?
Your toe/boot will be on top of the lever, Therefore it will scrape first.?

Unless your hanging your heels on the peg,?? I rest the ball of my foot there & just use the tip of my boot toe on the brake.

Hell maybe Iv not been low enough on the right for this to happen
I have routinely touched my left toe.

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post #34 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 09:16 PM
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Now that I think about it I don't use the rear brake on right handers either but I know I do in a left turn. In a right turn I move my right foot back on the peg and left foot forward (and just the opposite on a left hander). So with the right foot back I wouldn't be able to use the rear brake. It's odd that I didn't realize it until just now, it was just automatic.

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post #35 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 09:28 PM
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Heh heh, pretty obvious I couldn't possibly use my rear brake in a right hander looking at these pictures:







But in a left hander I cover the brake and touch it ocassionally:




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post #36 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by trackdayhero View Post
Now that I think about it I don't use the rear brake on right handers either but I know I do in a left turn. In a right turn I move my right foot back on the peg and left foot forward (and just the opposite on a left hander). So with the right foot back I wouldn't be able to use the rear brake. It's odd that I didn't realize it until just now, it was just automatic.
I do exactly the same thing with my feet.
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post #37 of 50 Old 12-13-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by trackdayhero View Post
On a related note:

Braking by Nick Ienatsch

Stole this from another forum. Read it!


"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.
I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.
I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?
To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.
Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.
There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!
But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.
Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)
Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…
I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.
No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.
7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com

Nice write up
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post #38 of 50 Old 04-12-2013, 03:25 PM
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Great info.
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post #39 of 50 Old 11-05-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ConradM View Post
How do you use your rear brake if you're cranked over to the right?
going left? I cant even reach it going right LOL

I got a buddy whos waaaay better than I am on the track who sez his knee can actually stand the bike up if it ever runs out from under him in corner.... kinda nuts LOL -- anyway he used to ride dirt (I never have) and knows how to back it in using the rear brake but I never use my rear at all (plus I'm too scared to try) ... and I get all that as far as the concept is concerned... I just can't/won't try to do it...

but he also told me if he gets in trbl and is running wide he can GRADUALLY brake and still make the corner cuz it shortens up the overall length of the bike etc like y'all are saying but this is the best way I've seen it fully explained. So as long as you dont stab the brakes (or throttle) in the corner, I know it IS possible to brake in the corner, and a few times I have (but not that much at all) - mostly I try and stick with the "dont brake in a corner" newbie advice.... Thank you for the detailed info guys....
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post #40 of 50 Old 11-11-2013, 01:58 PM
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How do you use your rear brake if you're cranked over to the right?
Practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibekman View Post
Wait a minute.... hold on. For the people that just finished up their first ever season... all I have been told everywhere is to pretend you have no brakes when mid lean. Hell, I thought rear brake in a turn meant an automatic lowside. I have never felt comfortable when I get on the brakes in a turn. The bike just feels unhappy, if that makes any sense. My little tumble in November was due to front braking in a turn. Are you guys saying that slow front brake plus more lean angle equals safe? I always thought the only thing keeping you from falling over in a lean was the centrifugal force due to speed. That and an increased contact patch in the rear due to acceleration. This new concept is something I simply don't understand.
They tell you to pretend you don't have brakes while in a lean, because most newbies grab at the brakes instead of progressively squeezing them. That is also why the bike seems "unhappy", because, you are grabbing the brakes too hard too quickly. Progressively squeezing the brakes actually increases the size of the contact patch, which gives you more traction to work with as the bike slows down. Also, when you release the brakes, you don't want to just let go either. You want to progressively release them so you don't upset the suspension and so you don't instantly lose the larger contact patch you were working with.

All of your control inputs should be smooth and progressive. Remember, slow is smooth and smooth is fast!

Tip: One good way to make your front brake inputs more smooth, and prevent grabbing them too hard too quick, is to only use two fingers on the lever (e.g. index and middle finger).
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post #41 of 50 Old 12-11-2013, 11:24 PM
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Some good late night reading. I prefer to set up my corners every time. Even if it means taking the speed down a notch. I prefer the acceleration out of a corner than the oh shit I have too much speed. Nonetheless a good read and some well noted points.

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post #42 of 50 Old 01-02-2014, 03:53 AM
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Hmm dunno, its all so rider specific, I have worked with riders that do all of the above. I have found that if the rider over analyses their technique then they aren't ever going to be able to improve as they use all of their dollars thinking about what they do. conversely some rider do no analysis at all (which can be more of a problem as you then first have to teach them how to record data in their brain!)

So use track maps retrospectively let them write down what they did and how they did it along with where and what problems they felt they have, quite often you will find that once its written down the same problem manifests itself more than once per lap.

Then focus on ONE thing only (probably the worst aspect) and try different strategies to alleviate that problem (oh yea sometimes the rider identifies what he/she thinks is the worst problem, you take a long look at the track map to find out that another problem is the biggest!)

Take away the focus - ride how you ride naturally - don't try to break the lap record every lap, then come in and write your track/corner map.

For these types of bike, it seems that the progressive braking and releasing is the fastest way - we always focus on the dead time at apex (ie you want none!)
So you should be braking RIGHT up until the Apex, typically tapering as you approach max lean angle.

Sometimes what feels slower is actually faster....
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post #43 of 50 Old 01-02-2014, 03:55 AM
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Some good late night reading. I prefer to set up my corners every time. Even if it means taking the speed down a notch. I prefer the acceleration out of a corner than the oh shit I have too much speed. Nonetheless a good read and some well noted points.
Braking in and accelerating out are two totally different disciplines, if you find one is impeding another you need to work on the impediment
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post #44 of 50 Old 04-22-2014, 03:04 PM
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Wow thank you finally
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post #45 of 50 Old 08-05-2014, 05:47 PM
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Wow a thread about trail braking. I usually trail brake pretty hard using front brake only to the apex (progressively letting off the lever as you lean more and more), I don't ever touch the rear, unless its raining, or I run off into the grass/gravel. My riding style doesn't suit using the rear brake much, usually my rear is pretty unstable on corner entry due to weight shift to the front, and engine braking (rapid downshifting). Lots of REALLY fast guys (i.e. guys in GP) don't use rear brake, not sure why a street rider would ever need to use it.
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