Riding Skills Literature - The Pace 2.0 - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 43 Old 07-25-2013, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hellonearth View Post
whats this!? someone posted something meaningful about motorcycles here...thread will be dead by tomorrow. good read bro.
Not as bad as four pages of "which leg do you put down when you stop?"


Good read though.
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post #17 of 43 Old 07-26-2013, 01:22 PM
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Amazing article. I just have to get used to using my rear brake I guess.
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post #18 of 43 Old 07-26-2013, 01:55 PM
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I'm going to tweak the title of this thread a little bit if you don't mind. I've already stickied it but I'd like to give a little more clarity to what exactly it is. Most people around here don't read books so they won't be familiar with the title.

Edit: Okay "discuss time."

What it boils down to is individual style. I think that personally, my own style varies. There were some things that I just couldn't pick up when I took Code's Superbike School, one of them was the quick-turn, or the flicking of the bars to engage turn-in. I've never been the type of rider that does any sort of abrupt motions; of course, it's possible that I've just never been fast enough for it to matter. It sounds like Ienatsch describes a little more of my own approach and I've found it to work for me. I do need to carry more speed though... I have a big problem with the confidence of my bikes right now though, mechanically. And I'm rusty as a rider too so I'm currently going back to square 1 with some of my own drills.

As for the lack of interest in the article: you have to understand that many folks who ride don't see it as a craft that they learn and unfortunately, the demographic of this forum is such that... well... you get a bunch of novices and dude-bro's wanting to fling poo at each other in pissing matches rather than actually opening themselves up to discussion. To them it's more like a hobby or a fashion statement... to us, well it's something much more involved (and rewarding).

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post #19 of 43 Old 07-26-2013, 02:27 PM
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I will give this some time when I find some... Anything I can do ti better myself and my riding is going to get done
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post #20 of 43 Old 07-26-2013, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by soc_monki View Post
it seems him and Keith Code differ a lot in certain areas. Keith says get all your braking done, then flick it into the corner. Nick says use your brakes to help with steering geometry and getting the bike turned, dont flick.

guess it just goes to show you there is more than one way of doing things!
I think Keith's books are just based on old school thinking and riding. Nothing wrong with it as a beginner though. Even ienatsch Said in this new "Pace" that he has revised his thinking over the years based on experience.

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Originally Posted by MistressOfMayhem View Post
I'm going to tweak the title of this thread a little bit if you don't mind. I've already stickied it but I'd like to give a little more clarity to what exactly it is. Most people around here don't read books so they won't be familiar with the title.

Edit: Okay "discuss time."

What it boils down to is individual style. I think that personally, my own style varies. There were some things that I just couldn't pick up when I took Code's Superbike School, one of them was the quick-turn, or the flicking of the bars to engage turn-in. I've never been the type of rider that does any sort of abrupt motions; of course, it's possible that I've just never been fast enough for it to matter. It sounds like Ienatsch describes a little more of my own approach and I've found it to work for me. I do need to carry more speed though... I have a big problem with the confidence of my bikes right now though, mechanically. And I'm rusty as a rider too so I'm currently going back to square 1 with some of my own drills.

As for the lack of interest in the article: you have to understand that many folks who ride don't see it as a craft that they learn and unfortunately, the demographic of this forum is such that... well... you get a bunch of novices and dude-bro's wanting to fling poo at each other in pissing matches rather than actually opening themselves up to discussion. To them it's more like a hobby or a fashion statement... to us, well it's something much more involved (and rewarding).
I think the biggest problem with learning trail braking, quick flicking, and of these other things is that the mental image it paints just messes people up. When I first started to try and trail brake, I just made myself get flustered and blow turns....on the street. When I wasn't trying and just running a good clip, I just found myself trail braking out of necessity. As of late, I have just been trying to play with it for the geometry changing aspect.

I really think that once your right hand is down, you can pick up everything else rather easy once you are confident that nothing will break down on you and your other mental blocks are gone. "Slow hands go fast" isn't just a cute saying, its the freakin truth. Just go out, and force yourself to apply the throttle like butter. Squeeze the brake smoothly. Make it such that you don't feel the bike pitch forward or aft. Once you do that, things pick up fast from there.

*To simplify things a great deal* The only difference between a decent track day rider and the top of MotoGP is the speed at which we all do things at. The top guys are just REALLY good at doing all of these things really fast, and really smooth.

Get your bikes together, treat yourself to some fresh rubber, and go just work on using the throttle to control your bike. Tires are butter, throttle is your butter knife,, so go smear some butter on the road.....

As for the demographics, yea. Too many "builders" and not enough riders. But they are keeping the aftermarket companies afloat I guess....

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post #21 of 43 Old 07-26-2013, 04:09 PM
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Yeah, trailbraking isn't really at the top of my priority list right now. Once I get back on the track (shooting for an august date since I've got some Q3s on order) I will worry about that. For me the biggest thing is getting my head back in it. I think this goes for a lot of riders. When I am in the prime of riding I tend to view everything through mindset of riding a motorcycle, so even in the grocery store I'm looking through the corner as I'm rounding the aisles lol, or if I'm driving a car, I'm looking through the corner, even if I know where it goes because I've driven it a thousand times.

So mentally kicking up the good habits, makes it a lot easier to get on the bike and naturally flow into the more mechanical habits like throttle control, braking and steering inputs. It's always been my belief that if your head isn't in it first, everything else is just struggling to play catch-up.

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post #22 of 43 Old 07-26-2013, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oKayH View Post

I think the biggest problem with learning trail braking, quick flicking, and of these other things is that the mental image it paints just messes people up. When I first started to try and trail brake, I just made myself get flustered and blow turns....on the street. When I wasn't trying and just running a good clip, I just found myself trail braking out of necessity. As of late, I have just been trying to play with it for the geometry changing aspect.
This is something I've been actually keeping a mental note on when I'm doing it. I had a track day last year where I was running in the advanced group all day.... dropped back to B group to run with a couple of friends for a session... I passed about 3 or 4 guys on the straight and late braked into the first turn... trailing off as I got to the apex. I nearly shat myself in doing so. But I realized later that I had been doing it all day in A group in that turn. I just hadn't been passing anyone and was in a totally different line of the track.

Since then each time I'm pushing into a turn on the track I'm working on my trailing off the brakes into the turn. For two reasons... better entry speed and geometry of the bike on tip in. I've noticed it has been a huge step in my riding lately. I'm much more confident at faster corner entries than I was a couple of years ago.


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post #23 of 43 Old 07-27-2013, 02:38 PM
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Trail braking is necessary when you're getting up there in speed. If you do all your braking (read: not most, you should definitely do most) in a straight line, then you're going to lose too much speed by turn in and increase your coasting time up to the apex. I've found that the "flicking" technique is a disaster when you're at the level of using trail braking. Weight transition needs to be more nuanced.
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post #24 of 43 Old 07-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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"*To simplify things a great deal* The only difference between a decent track day rider and the top of MotoGP is the speed at which we all do things at. The top guys are just REALLY good at doing all of these things really fast, and really smooth. "

Exactly. Their experience allows them to ride at amazing speeds while manipulating their bike as of it was part of their body. It is when you start to think and worry that bad things happen, such as getting tunnel vision and veering off road. Seeing how comfortable they are while riding and dragging knee inspires me to better myself, to learn how to get into that frame of mind where it is just me, the bike, and the road.
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post #25 of 43 Old 07-27-2013, 03:30 PM
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Now if I could just find a street tire that would let me have 65 degrees of lean angle.
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post #26 of 43 Old 07-27-2013, 07:29 PM
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Good read, now I need to go find the original Pace. Something I find somewhat difficult in reading all these books and articles and watching videos, is sorting through all of it and finding what techniques to try next. Especially given that I strictly street ride and don't track. Some of the skills I've read and practiced aren't used in everyday riding, but could be used in emergency situations. Others can be applied, just to a lesser extent than they would be used on track to be a better smoother rider.

Edit- this season I've been really trying to be more smooth with the controls, particularly the throttle. Now I see I definitely need to be working on smooth on and off the brakes relating to how it affects geometry. I've noticed differences in the ease of turning in some corners, and this article makes it clear to me what's going on when I'm not consistent with the brakes.

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post #27 of 43 Old 07-28-2013, 02:07 AM
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What a sweet read man! Very keen to head to the track and give some of that a go.
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post #28 of 43 Old 07-28-2013, 02:38 AM
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Great read, too bad many out there will find this boring. No sweat, those same guys are contributing and allowing me to buy a cheap track bike after they wad it up doing a wheelie.
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I'm not bashing anybody all I am saying is that there are plenty of other forum sections more appropriate for squid threads but he picked this one. I'm sure you dont see anything wrong with it but to me you have shit on my sanctuary. Nobody goes to church just to shit in the middle of it. you just dont do that man!
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post #29 of 43 Old 07-28-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by oKayH View Post
I think Keith's books are just based on old school thinking and riding. Nothing wrong with it as a beginner though. Even ienatsch Said in this new "Pace" that he has revised his thinking over the years based on experience.



I think the biggest problem with learning trail braking, quick flicking, and of these other things is that the mental image it paints just messes people up. When I first started to try and trail brake, I just made myself get flustered and blow turns....on the street. When I wasn't trying and just running a good clip, I just found myself trail braking out of necessity. As of late, I have just been trying to play with it for the geometry changing aspect.

I really think that once your right hand is down, you can pick up everything else rather easy once you are confident that nothing will break down on you and your other mental blocks are gone. "Slow hands go fast" isn't just a cute saying, its the freakin truth. Just go out, and force yourself to apply the throttle like butter. Squeeze the brake smoothly. Make it such that you don't feel the bike pitch forward or aft. Once you do that, things pick up fast from there.

*To simplify things a great deal* The only difference between a decent track day rider and the top of MotoGP is the speed at which we all do things at. The top guys are just REALLY good at doing all of these things really fast, and really smooth.

Get your bikes together, treat yourself to some fresh rubber, and go just work on using the throttle to control your bike. Tires are butter, throttle is your butter knife,, so go smear some butter on the road.....

As for the demographics, yea. Too many "builders" and not enough riders. But they are keeping the aftermarket companies afloat I guess....
Tires are butter, throttle is your butter knife!!! Very good analogy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jihenhp4 View Post
Trail braking is necessary when you're getting up there in speed. If you do all your braking (read: not most, you should definitely do most) in a straight line, then you're going to lose too much speed by turn in and increase your coasting time up to the apex. I've found that the "flicking" technique is a disaster when you're at the level of using trail braking. Weight transition needs to be more nuanced.
I agree again here, very good point.

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post #30 of 43 Old 07-30-2013, 07:58 PM
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i'd love to read it but it's not coming up for me i'll try on another computer.
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