For you rear brake haters. - ZX6R Forum
 46Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
Post Master General
 
trackdayhero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: il
Posts: 7,325
For you rear brake haters.

Hmmm, what's this funny looking lever this guy keeps pushing on?

https://www.facebook.com/PramacRacin...4872096403304/
insan3guy and Gawernator like this.

.
trackdayhero is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 12:57 PM
World Superbike Champion
 
Gawernator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 2,150

I Ride: 2015 ZX-6R 636; 2009 250R; 1999 KX125
Garage
Rear brake is there for a reason
ZedExMuse likes this.

Watchdog Armory Racing AFM #725 Thanks to my 2017 Sponsors:
JPH Suspension | AXO | Armour Bodies | BELL Helmets | Braven | EVLUTION Nutrition | Forcefield Armor | FunTrackDayz | Galfer | Incipio/Incase | Motion Pro | MOTUL | Matrix Racing Concepts | ODI Grips | OGIO | Outlaw Racing/Pit Posse Motorsports | Shorai Inc. | SPEEDMOB | Vortex | Woodcraft
http://www.gawerracing.com
Gawernator is offline  
post #3 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 01:11 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
jd41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Monterey, California
Posts: 2,894

I Ride: 2014 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawernator View Post
Rear brake is there for a reason
They are there for when the front brakes fail

Martillo y Mantequilla #99
jd41 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 01:21 PM
World Superbike Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,819

I Ride: 2013 ZX6R
That's fine and dandy for MotoGP racers and even amateur racers. I understand the logic that it helps set the rear for the turn and all that or to even slide the bike into the corner. But I still maintain that using the rear break is an advanced rider skill that may get the majority of riders that don't race into trouble. Even if you develop very good skill in utilizing the rear brake during aggressive riding, in an emergency situation, riders will revert back to what they practice which includes going for the rear brake and likely jamming it and locking the rear wheel and initiating a lowside or highside (Guilty as charged here.) Staying on the bike as long as possible gives you the best braking distance. And study after study has shown the rear brake only contributes to a mere fraction of stopping distance. Put that against the ability of the average rider to effectively use the rear brake in an emergency situation, I don't think its worth it, and I recommend to my fellow amateur riders to not use their rear brake and instead focus on progressive front braking. Your mind can much easier focus on progressing force onto one lever (the front brake) rather than two different levers (front and rear brake), therefore you can more easily prevent brake lockup.

As the recent "study" done by Virginia Tech highlights, the average rider is still underwhemingly skilled in braking and there is a huge amount of riders that are plowing into the back of vehicles. And I believe through my own experience that this is because they are not adequately skilled in braking, and if they do get on the rear brake, they lock the rear and purposely initiate a low side like we've all seen tons of our friends do. Which is extremely counterproductive because they would've been traveling slower at the time of collision or even completely avoid collision if they stayed on the bike as long as possible. Once you leave that bike, you trade the superior mechanical stopping power for just relying on friction to slow you down.

Just my $.02 As with anything, we all have differing opinions on these types of topics. If your confident enough for it, go for it. You're certainly a better rider than I am.
Phlux and PainfullySlo like this.

Last edited by RedAndBlack; 12-29-2016 at 01:26 PM.
RedAndBlack is offline  
post #5 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 01:28 PM
World Superbike Champion
 
Gawernator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 2,150

I Ride: 2015 ZX-6R 636; 2009 250R; 1999 KX125
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd41 View Post
They are there for when the front brakes fail
BTDT didn't work lol


No front brake, you can hear me using the rear brake to 100% capacity squealing the rear tire without dumping it

Watchdog Armory Racing AFM #725 Thanks to my 2017 Sponsors:
JPH Suspension | AXO | Armour Bodies | BELL Helmets | Braven | EVLUTION Nutrition | Forcefield Armor | FunTrackDayz | Galfer | Incipio/Incase | Motion Pro | MOTUL | Matrix Racing Concepts | ODI Grips | OGIO | Outlaw Racing/Pit Posse Motorsports | Shorai Inc. | SPEEDMOB | Vortex | Woodcraft
http://www.gawerracing.com
Gawernator is offline  
post #6 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
Post Master General
 
trackdayhero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: il
Posts: 7,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAndBlack View Post
That's fine and dandy for MotoGP racers and even amateur racers. I understand the logic that it helps set the rear for the turn and all that or to even slide the bike into the corner. But I still maintain that using the rear break is an advanced rider skill that may get the majority of riders that don't race into trouble. Even if you develop very good skill in utilizing the rear brake during aggressive riding, in an emergency situation, riders will revert back to what they practice which includes going for the rear brake and likely jamming it and locking the rear wheel and initiating a lowside or highside (Guilty as charged here.) Staying on the bike as long as possible gives you the best braking distance. And study after study has shown the rear brake only contributes to a mere fraction of stopping distance. Put that against the ability of the average rider to effectively use the rear brake in an emergency situation, I don't think its worth it, and I recommend to my fellow amateur riders to not use their rear brake and instead focus on progressive front braking. Your mind can much easier focus on progressing force onto one lever (the front brake) rather than two different levers (front and rear brake), therefore you can more easily prevent brake lockup.

As the recent "study" done by Virginia Tech highlights, the average rider is still underwhemingly skilled in braking and there is a huge amount of riders that are plowing into the back of vehicles. And I believe through my own experience that this is because they are not adequately skilled in braking, and if they do get on the rear brake, they lock the rear and purposely initiate a low side like we've all seen tons of our friends do. Which is extremely counterproductive because they would've been traveling slower at the time of collision or even completely avoid collision if they stayed on the bike as long as possible. Once you leave that bike, you trade the superior mechanical stopping power for just relying on friction to slow you down.

Just my $.02 As with anything, we all have differing opinions on these types of topics. If your confident enough for it, go for it. You're certainly a better rider than I am.
It just means that they're not "adequately skilled" at riding a motorcycle. Do you think MotoGP racers just start using the rear brake for the first time after they become MotoGP stars? Of course not, they started using it from the beginning. It's probably one reasons they were able to become MotoGP stars.

Without using it you are giving up an important control. My first bike only had a rear brake. It was a Montgomery Ward minibike with a 5HP B&S and a foot brake that rubbed the rear tire to slow you down and stop. I was 5 years old and I certainly wasn't an "advanced" rider back then. It's a control you should be learning how to use "properly" from the beginning just like every other control you have available to you.

They're not crashing into the back of cars because they are using the rear brake, it's because they are improperly braking. Improper use of almost any one of the controls can cause you to crash. I just never understood why people treat the rear brake like some magical voodoo. Granted, there are a lot of motorcycle riders out there who maybe shouldn't be riding motorcycles, at least not in traffic. They would be wise to do a lot of practicing and getting coaching on dirt bikes and in parking lots before going out on the highways.
Strider, Brent1 and Gawernator like this.

.

Last edited by trackdayhero; 12-29-2016 at 01:52 PM.
trackdayhero is offline  
post #7 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 01:50 PM
World Superbike Champion
 
Gawernator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 2,150

I Ride: 2015 ZX-6R 636; 2009 250R; 1999 KX125
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAndBlack View Post
That's fine and dandy for MotoGP racers and even amateur racers. I understand the logic that it helps set the rear for the turn and all that or to even slide the bike into the corner. But I still maintain that using the rear break is an advanced rider skill that may get the majority of riders that don't race into trouble. Even if you develop very good skill in utilizing the rear brake during aggressive riding, in an emergency situation, riders will revert back to what they practice which includes going for the rear brake and likely jamming it and locking the rear wheel and initiating a lowside or highside (Guilty as charged here.) Staying on the bike as long as possible gives you the best braking distance. And study after study has shown the rear brake only contributes to a mere fraction of stopping distance. Put that against the ability of the average rider to effectively use the rear brake in an emergency situation, I don't think its worth it, and I recommend to my fellow amateur riders to not use their rear brake and instead focus on progressive front braking. Your mind can much easier focus on progressing force onto one lever (the front brake) rather than two different levers (front and rear brake), therefore you can more easily prevent brake lockup.

As the recent "study" done by Virginia Tech highlights, the average rider is still underwhemingly skilled in braking and there is a huge amount of riders that are plowing into the back of vehicles. And I believe through my own experience that this is because they are not adequately skilled in braking, and if they do get on the rear brake, they lock the rear and purposely initiate a low side like we've all seen tons of our friends do. Which is extremely counterproductive because they would've been traveling slower at the time of collision or even completely avoid collision if they stayed on the bike as long as possible. Once you leave that bike, you trade the superior mechanical stopping power for just relying on friction to slow you down.

Just my $.02 As with anything, we all have differing opinions on these types of topics. If your confident enough for it, go for it. You're certainly a better rider than I am.
CMSP basic rider course includes learning to stop with both brakes. "revert back to what they practice" EXACTLY. Which is EXACTLY why you practice panic stops and using the rear brake. By not properly braking you are giving yourself a training scar. http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/training-scars
Strider and Brent1 like this.

Watchdog Armory Racing AFM #725 Thanks to my 2017 Sponsors:
JPH Suspension | AXO | Armour Bodies | BELL Helmets | Braven | EVLUTION Nutrition | Forcefield Armor | FunTrackDayz | Galfer | Incipio/Incase | Motion Pro | MOTUL | Matrix Racing Concepts | ODI Grips | OGIO | Outlaw Racing/Pit Posse Motorsports | Shorai Inc. | SPEEDMOB | Vortex | Woodcraft
http://www.gawerracing.com
Gawernator is offline  
post #8 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 02:15 PM
World Superbike Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 1,343
Don't use the rear brake. See if I care. That just means I beat you around the track. Good for me. Bad for you.
the prophet is offline  
post #9 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 02:42 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,691

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Repost...beat you to it a while ago

Using the rear brake...the pro way!
spiderman636 likes this.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle

April 2016 and April 2017 6OTM winner!
sbk1198 is offline  
post #10 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 02:42 PM
Track Star
 
Petrolsexual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 465

I Ride: 2009 ZX6R
If you are an expert licensed racer who is 3-4 seconds off the track record, go for it. Otherwise, you are adding a lot of risk with, at best, very minimal gains using the rear brake when you still have a long way to go to get all you can out of the more important controls. Plus, you are stunting your development on those important things because that is one more thing you are dividing your attention between. You'll accomplish probably 95%-97% of all you will ever accomplish with the brakes with the front brake, so if you can't use it well idk why you would worry about the rear. Hell I've almost highsided myself just banging down gears turning into a corner without touching the rear brake.

To me that would be like a golfer who can't get the ball to go where he is aiming purposely trying to put backspin, or topspin, or a slice on the ball. Maybe worry about being able to hit your target first before trying to do all that.
sbk1198 likes this.

Last edited by Petrolsexual; 12-29-2016 at 04:02 PM.
Petrolsexual is offline  
post #11 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 03:13 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
jd41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Monterey, California
Posts: 2,894

I Ride: 2014 Kawasaki ZX-6R
Garage
I use the rear occasionally during a turn, but rarely. You can still win championships without it

Kevin Schwantz?s expert eye on braking

Kevin Schwantz: “You also have to be really smooth in your transition off of the brakes. For me it was always one or two fingers and just the front brake, I never used the rear brake at all.”

Gawernator and KHansen89 like this.

Martillo y Mantequilla #99

Last edited by jd41; 12-29-2016 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Video
jd41 is offline  
post #12 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 03:20 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,691

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd41 View Post
I use the rear occasionally during a turn, but rarely. You can still win championships without it

Kevin Schwantz?s expert eye on braking

Kevin Schwantz: “You also have to be really smooth in your transition off of the brakes. For me it was always one or two fingers and just the front brake, I never used the rear brake at all.”
Casey Stoner was a master of the rear brake. When you get to that level and you can use it right, it can probably help you gain a bit of advantage, but like Petrol said....for most of us...not gonna make much difference. There are other things we need to worry about and improve on first. Whatever lap times you do at whatever tracks you go to, it's not because you're using the rear brake. You'd do the same lap times without it too. Not directed at you JD, just in general.
PainfullySlo and Gawernator like this.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle

April 2016 and April 2017 6OTM winner!
sbk1198 is offline  
post #13 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 05:43 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
PainfullySlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 4,258

I Ride: 64 Ducati Monza, 99 Sprint ST, 04 TTR125, 04 Sportster, 09 GSXR600, 12 Street Triple, 13 ZX6R
Garage
I feel like I need to just keep this handy to copy and paste.

There are advantages to using the rear brake however the vast majority (95%+) of motorcycle riders do not adequately use the front brake and so their time, effort, and training is better spent learning to maximize the use of the front brake to avoid collisions.

Once a rider has mastered the front brake, then and only then should they begin to incorporate rear braking into their riding style. This is what I practice, this is what I teach, and I firmly believe this is the most realistic and best approach for all sportbike riders.
Gawernator and Addhoc like this.
PainfullySlo is offline  
post #14 of 43 Old 12-29-2016, 09:24 PM
World Superbike Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,819

I Ride: 2013 ZX6R
Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
I feel like I need to just keep this handy to copy and paste.

There are advantages to using the rear brake however the vast majority (95%+) of motorcycle riders do not adequately use the front brake and so their time, effort, and training is better spent learning to maximize the use of the front brake to avoid collisions.

Once a rider has mastered the front brake, then and only then should they begin to incorporate rear braking into their riding style. This is what I practice, this is what I teach, and I firmly believe this is the most realistic and best approach for all sportbike riders.
Exactly!
RedAndBlack is offline  
post #15 of 43 Old 12-30-2016, 12:57 AM
World Superbike Champion
 
Gawernator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 2,150

I Ride: 2015 ZX-6R 636; 2009 250R; 1999 KX125
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by the prophet View Post
Don't use the rear brake. See if I care. That just means I beat you around the track. Good for me. Bad for you.

Watchdog Armory Racing AFM #725 Thanks to my 2017 Sponsors:
JPH Suspension | AXO | Armour Bodies | BELL Helmets | Braven | EVLUTION Nutrition | Forcefield Armor | FunTrackDayz | Galfer | Incipio/Incase | Motion Pro | MOTUL | Matrix Racing Concepts | ODI Grips | OGIO | Outlaw Racing/Pit Posse Motorsports | Shorai Inc. | SPEEDMOB | Vortex | Woodcraft
http://www.gawerracing.com
Gawernator is offline  
Reply

  ZX6R Forum > ZX6R Forum > Motorcycle Talk

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB 03-04 clip-ons, foot pegs, shift lever & rear brake lever Rickthefix Want to Buy 0 03-10-2014 07:08 PM
Bohemian Racing Adjustable Rearsets ZX6R Kevin2109 The ZX6R 130 12-26-2013 05:04 PM
My rear brake took a ish on me yesterday. Need your help! 1wheel Mechanical and Technical 17 11-21-2013 09:10 AM
FS: 09+ Brake side rear set & throttle side clip on oKayH Classifieds 4 09-08-2012 09:50 PM
04 636 rear brake gone crap d1andonlyant Mechanical and Technical 9 02-16-2012 12:29 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome