License limitations.... - ZX6R Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 05:04 AM Thread Starter
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License limitations....

I've always been of mixed opinion on this.

It's obvious that more people would be better riders with more training.

It's also obvious that if you can't get to 'stupid fast' as quickly, you might have a chance of surviving long enough to gain the experience you could take advantage of to handle something faster.

My issue comes with having that mandated. What should be obvious to anyone and is not applied, should hurt.

The question then becomes how much impact an inept operator has on those who share the road with them.

I know that there is some inconsistency in the training of semi truck operators, and other commercial vehicles. A CDL is not easy to obtain, and is commensurate with the potential harm that an 80,000 (+?) lb vehicle can wreak on other road users. Seeing a semi truck punt a snow plow off a cliff in UT graphically demonstrates the potential. As do the terrorist attacks which have been happening in malls, etc. I'd be shocked if the terror attacks used drivers who were qualified.... same thing with gun attacks and the like. The license doesn't control the behavior. The operator does.

A less massive vehicle requires less structured qualification, IMHO. The lines get blurry with RVs that are the same size as a commercial bus -- those IMHO should require a CDL. Especially when towing a trailer.

Stepping down in mass to light trucks and cars....... people in Scandinavia are shocked at how poorly trained just about anyone else in the world is. The US approach of limited training and skills qualification is shocking to most of the rest of the world. We tend to take an approach closer to 'let God sort them out' than almost anywhere else in the world -- at least, in what are considered 'first world' countries.

Stepping down to even less massive vehicles, the risk of personal injury to the operator begins to exceed their potential destructiveness to others. So much so, that a 50cc moped requires no training at all, let alone any form of operator's permit.

This is one small facet of the American psyche that I consider a fundamental cornerstone of the philosophy which has made us who we are....... you don't need the government to tell you water is wet. Let the people choose how safe they want to be. Regulate the outliers.

Less government, is the most government I want.
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"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #2 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 05:48 AM
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How would you feel about insurance companies increasing premiums on people with little/no training and reducing premiums for people with verifiable and recent training?

No government involvement. People are free to be as ignorant as they choose, and those of us who invest hundreds to thousands of dollars in education to be safer don't have to foot the bill for those who don't.

For example if I am going to spend $X on lowering the risk of riding anyway, why should I also pay more in insurance to cover people who don't invest in training and gear?

Ey3
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The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

The only time a leader should use the word "I" is in the sentence "I have to shit"

'In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.' ~Some dude named Friedrich

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post #3 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ey3l45h View Post
How would you feel about insurance companies increasing premiums on people with little/no training and reducing premiums for people with verifiable and recent training?

No government involvement. People are free to be as ignorant as they choose, and those of us who invest hundreds to thousands of dollars in education to be safer don't have to foot the bill for those who don't.

For example if I am going to spend $X on lowering the risk of riding anyway, why should I also pay more in insurance to cover people who don't invest in training and gear?

Ey3
Progressive now has that gizmo you can allow to be installed on your car, so they can monitor how you actually drive.... and you pay premiums based on the data they gather. I don't know if that is given appropriate weight, as having the gizmo installed would make people far more conscientious, if they know it is there. Even if they know, if they drive 'better' and have less accidents, there should be a reduction in costs for all involved. Does the person submitting to the monitoring get the 'full' benefit of being monitored? No way for me to tell..... hence, no way to tell if it's being fairly applied. Sounds good in theory, until the company starts losing money and starts d*cking around with the parameters.

If you demonstrate better than average behavior, and cost insurance companies less..... you should pay less. if you live/operate vehicles in a low crime, low traffic density/low crash area.... pay less.

The more refined the data, the more accurately the costs can be assessed...... if there is incentive to do so.

I'd really like to know if eSurance is actually cheaper for the consumer than insurance through a brick and mortar outfit. Amazon has demonstrated that retail sales of physical merchandise doesn't need storefronts......... why not insurance?

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #4 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 06:32 AM
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See, I would be very uncomfortable with such a device. Even though The capability is already there. They could give an incentive for using their smartphone app and have all the same tracking data. Many modern/new cars have Bluetooth, and many people have smartphones that never leave their side.

It is my understanding submitting to such tracking would make the data available to prosecuting agencies (removes expectation of privacy. At least I know that is used to get access to emails.) (Not saying it is/will be used for traffic offenses tomorrow, but that the legal structure to allow it seems to exist/is being built.) that just seems a bit too Orwellian for me.

Now submitting proof that I took class A, B, and C would be much more comfortable. It would be just like doing CPEs for industry certs.

Ey3
flipflarnix likes this.

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

The only time a leader should use the word "I" is in the sentence "I have to shit"

'In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.' ~Some dude named Friedrich

'Never trust authority implicitly. People are fucking scumbags.' AvE

Last edited by Ey3l45h; 01-22-2017 at 06:35 AM.
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post #5 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 06:35 AM Thread Starter
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Further thoughts on insurance rates..... the whole thing is a monstrous scam..... If you could put enough money aside to have a personal bond you could avoid insurance costs altogether.... just like all government agencies and most corporations do. If you are busted for DUI enough times that insurance companies won't take the risk anymore, you can put up a bond to effectively self insure. 30 years ago, that was a $25K bond-- no idea if that is still allowed, or what the amount might be.

But I can tell you, were I to have that money in the bank drawing interest I would be more concerned with losing it than I am in having my premiums go up.

Being self insured in a 'no fault' state would make the most sense to me.

As does the idea of having an untaxed pool of money to be used for medical expenses. Can't recall the term exactly; the part that annoys me with that one is that it was difficult for many years to 'roll over' the funds -- it was use it or lose it.

I will admit there was a period of time where I drove without any coverage at all, in my youth. Not a good choice. It was driven by the cost to insure, and the extremely small benefit I perceived in having coverage. A risk I was willing to take at the time. At 55, the costs are so much more reasonable that it's stupid for me not to carry the best coverage I can afford.

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #6 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ey3l45h View Post
See, I would be very uncomfortable with such a device. Even though The capability is already there. They could give an incentive for using their smartphone app and have all the same tracking data. Many modern/new cars have Bluetooth, and many people have smartphones that never leave their side.

It is my understanding submitting to such tracking would make the data available to prosecuting agencies (removes expectation of privacy. At least I know that is used to get access to emails.) (Not saying it is/will be used for traffic offenses tomorrow, but that the legal structure to allow it seems to exist/is being built.) that just seems a bit too Orwellian for me.

Now submitting proof that I took class A, B, and C would be much more comfortable. It would be just like doing CPEs for industry certs.

Ey3
you may not be aware of this.....

If you are driving a car built within the past 10-15 years, there is already data that can be taken to incriminate you without your permission......as 'smart' as bikes are today, with ABS/TCS and a fairly beefy CPU, I don't see why they couldn't also have event data recorders even now.
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"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #7 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 06:43 AM Thread Starter
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To bring this back on topic, your approach presumes that paper outweighs experience. More training may or may not equate to less accidents. If recent training reduced accident rates in significant ways, the safest drivers should be the ones who most recently completed training, right?

That's most 16 year old drivers, isn't it?

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #8 of 8 Old 01-22-2017, 06:46 AM
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Sorry for the thread jack.

MSF carries an insurance discount. I just think more advanced training should as well. Anecdotally I have avoided accidents using techniques learned at more advanced training.

In my state no formal training is required for a license. So I would not expect 16 year olds to have the most recent training.

I would add training as a variable to the actuary function. Not remove already working variables.

Ey3

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

The only time a leader should use the word "I" is in the sentence "I have to shit"

'In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.' ~Some dude named Friedrich

'Never trust authority implicitly. People are fucking scumbags.' AvE

Last edited by Ey3l45h; 01-22-2017 at 06:58 AM.
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