Are 600s On The Way Out? - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 32 Old 03-18-2017, 09:03 AM
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One only has to look to world level racing to see where the middleweight trend is moving towards . . . which suggests it is to naked bikes.

As of 2019 the Moto2 class will be powered by the triumph triple 765 engine (MotoGP: Triumph to be Moto2 spec engine supplier in 2019 | Sport Rider).
As for World Supersport series there is speculation for a move from 600cc SS bikes to a sport naked class (Nakedbikes To Replace World Supersport Class! - Cycle News)
(WSB: World Supersport set to be replaced by naked class? | MCN)

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post #17 of 32 Old 03-19-2017, 05:48 AM
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I want to start by saying I love the 600 class. As a mostly street rider I think it's the best package you can get for spirited street riding. That said I love many of the 600-1300cc nakeds, 1000cc SuperBikes and other categories that are detracting from the 600 market. Aside from my constant complaint that none of them are as engaging on the road, and being a huge fan of the I4 which few of them utilise, there is a huge concern about those bikes in Britain: cost.

£15-20k to buy. £1-5k/year to insure. Way more £££ to run. Way more £££ to mod. It will drive many riders to stop, or keep older bikes running. It will keep most new riders to the 300cc class, or drive them straight for the stupid expensive models which will inevitably get stolen or crashed and then won't be replaced. It's not financially viable.

I want to buy bikes in these other classes, but I think the long term (and I do mean 10-20 year term) will see the demise of both the 600's and the number of riders (real riders, not kids/commuters on scooters or other such numbers added to make it look better) on the street and track. For me, it's a short game being played to make more cash and ignore core issues. It's not 100% about the class really, but what it stands for financially.

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post #18 of 32 Old 03-19-2017, 08:19 AM
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^^ I think what will eventually happen is an extension of how the tiered licensing is presently done in the UK--- the classification of motorcycles will eventually go to HP/weight ratios, rather than displacement.

It's obvious that a small motor in a heavy bike will accelerate less strongly, and the required amount of power to maintain 'safe' speeds in various regimes could be more or less.... the threshold of what is acceptable to the various governments, and the market that sustains the manufacturers will have to eventually reach some more definitive set of guidelines.

Peak power of roughly 60 HP is adequate to propel a motorcycle at any highway speed legal in the US..... and that's overstating it significantly, as the minimum displacement allowed on Federally funded highways is 250cc.

That size motor would have a hard time generating much more than 40 HP as a four stroke as a naturally aspirated design, with any sort of reliability. Emissions standards again play into what can be allowed on the road; the thing has to meet the specified smog limits for some set number of miles/years. The more tightly wound the motor, the harder that is to accomplish. A 250 cc two stroke of old could nearly double the output of the 4 stroke, but the rings would start to fail much sooner due to passing over the ports in the cylinder wall.

Superchargers, turbochargers..... they both cause a lot more wear if applied to a design not developed with that in mind. Wankel rotary designs have even higher power to weight numbers, and also suffer from wear on the rings sealing the 'cylinders'.

If someone does a hybrid -- the electrics provide the boost above what is needed for cruising....... can that be done light enough and cheap enough to be competitive? And how do the insurance companies rate the thing? What risk category is assigned?

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post #19 of 32 Old 03-19-2017, 01:17 PM
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600s have been on the way out for some time. That doesn't mean that the final nail is yet in the coffin, however.

There are many reasons for this but I believe that here in the US it is simply the ignorant perception of the masses. Go down to your local bike night. All the 'bro's' are on liter bikes. I actually had people laugh at me when I told them I ride 600s and have been told that 'it is a girls bike'.

This perception stunts middleweight sales to the point where it is barely viable to produce the platform for the major manufacturers.

Looks like a new ZX10 may just be in my future if I cannot continue to get my hands on middleweights.

As for th FZ07. it is a capable bike but the concept is by no means new. The lightweight brackets out here (SV650, EX650, Monster 1100, FZ07s) are very competitive and have been for years.
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post #20 of 32 Old 03-19-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
As for th FZ07. it is a capable bike but the concept is by no means new. The lightweight brackets out here (SV650, EX650, Monster 1100, FZ07s) are very competitive and have been for years.
Very true. I've seen some amazing fz07 and ninja 650 track bike builds.

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post #21 of 32 Old 03-19-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by commiehunter View Post
I

guess since I haven't done track days, don't have a track only bike, and haven't raced, I was generalizing. If 600s went away, and someone wanted a precision machine only for the track, I was guessing that race classes and or trackday only riders could migrate to a literbike.


You'd be starting out on a KTM 390, or a Kawi ZX-300, etc. Super Sport models will be dictated by consumer demand. Which right now seems to be midi not mini sized. And because makers have gone to a 'world model' concept, they won't make a special case for the USA.

Look what was on pole for the American Flat Track at Daytona, a modified Kawasaki Ninja 650-based (twin) flat track machine.... Going up against the best from Harley & Indian. A Kawi 650 finished third! That's thinking outside the box.

If you don't like the way things are going make your voice heard on this and other forums, you gotta know Kawi Japan is lurking about. But the reality is 600 Super Sports have not move on since the late '80s. No wonder people are buying something all together different. You cannot take the same old box that's been lying about and paint it a different colour and call it 'new.' The Japanese Factories are lazy.

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post #22 of 32 Old 03-19-2017, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanctuary View Post
Pure conjecture by an Australian publication IMHO. Kawasaki has already moved the bike above 600cc, which was a smart move.

I'd still love to see the rumoured supercharged ZX6R platform. That would be insane.
Personally... I'd love to see a ZX-7R

Give me a 750cc ZX again. Then throw a 4 cylinder 400cc in as the smaller super sports. Because there's something pretty special about 19k rpms

I think it's weird how the market has basically grown itself out of a true middle weight bike. All of the new standard sport bikes going to 700+ twins and triples has made people revert back to "there's no replacement for dislacement" kind of attitude IMHO. And the little bikes are selling like fucking gangbusters! EVERY brand has a small, entry level sport bike now. We'll see the Suzuki sometime this year. Yet the 600's (middleweights) are almost going extinct. Meanwhile... liter bikes are selling like mad and new tech comes out each year making the prices climb towards the $20k mark each minute.

Soon the progression for people will be... a) 300cc sport bike. b) a 700cc+ twin or I3 standard/fairing-less c) Most advanced motorcycle on the planet.

You won't have the option of a middleweight supersport if it keeps going this way.
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post #23 of 32 Old 03-20-2017, 08:19 AM
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On the track I see quite a few riders killing it on FZ-07s these days. It looks like the middleweight twins might be the heir apparent to the 600 I4. I would love to see "R" versions of these middleweight twins (and triples) with a better suspension, brakes, and whatever else they can throw at them (frames?) to make them handle well. My only problem with these bikes in their current form is that you have to dump a bunch of money into them to make them good performers for track or spirited street riding. Picture in your mind a 650ish V Twin Tuono Factory, that would be a sweet bike for any stretch of pavement.
There's a bike like this. The Triumph Street Triple RS.

And yes, having both an FZ-07 and an FZ-07 R would be cool. The primary weakness of all the Yamaha FZ series was their suspension, from what I gathered.
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post #24 of 32 Old 03-21-2017, 07:48 AM
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600s have been on the way out for some time. That doesn't mean that the final nail is yet in the coffin, however.

There are many reasons for this but I believe that here in the US it is simply the ignorant perception of the masses. Go down to your local bike night. All the 'bro's' are on liter bikes. I actually had people laugh at me when I told them I ride 600s and have been told that 'it is a girls bike'.

This perception stunts middleweight sales to the point where it is barely viable to produce the platform for the major manufacturers.
I agree, I started out on a CBR-1000RR due to the perception that bigger was better. After 8 years, I realized that the 600 class was a better fit for my riding abilities.

However, I think that the growing popularity (and practical application) of Streetfighter bikes has also dealt a huge blow to the 600 class and race bikes in general. From what I see, all of the major companies have invested heavily in a streetfighter companion for their supersport bikes in the past 2 years. Kawi has released several new upright bikes for 2017.

Last year, I traded in my ZX6R for a GSX-S1000 (I would have also went for the GSX-S750 if they had released the newer version with TC sooner). I wanted to keep my ZX6R, but at the end of the day, I am not doing track days. And well, a racing bike on the road (other than the highway) just doesn't make much sense to me anymore.

IMO...in the next 5 years, the streetfighter style bikes are going to dominate the high performance market, and the supersport will remain with those who "really" ride it the way it was built for...the track.
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post #25 of 32 Old 03-21-2017, 10:13 PM
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There's a bike like this. The Triumph Street Triple RS.
Fuck yeah. I should know when mine is arriving by the end of the week.

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post #26 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 04:45 AM
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Fuck yeah. I should know when mine is arriving by the end of the week.
I had one, its a lot of fun. Very torquey and great around town bike. I think you will love it.
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post #27 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 07:47 AM
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What?? I hope this doesn't happen. You know it's funny to hear about this whole Euro 4 emissions bs that's driving a lot of this stuff, when in the last few days that I've been in France, I swear I've never seen so many 2-strokes on the road anywhere before! I've seen more shitty 2-stroke bikes which have crappy emissions in the last few days than I've seen in any given year in the US.
Why are you in France?

I don't think the 600's are totally done yet. One day maybe.

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post #28 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 08:25 AM
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I have owned two 600cc super sport bikes, and prefer them on the street to a 1000. My first was a 2007 CBR 600 RR which was sublime.....sweetest handling chassis of any bike I have owned. Picked up a new 2015 636 for cheap and love riding it in the twisties. Better overall than was my CBR 600, but the CBR seemed to go where I wanted with just a thought.

I can envision the writing on the wall for the 600 class but it would be a damn shame if manufacturers were to eventually quit making them. More reason to never part with my ZX636.

However my favorite bike overall is still my Ninja 1000. As I get older I desire more comfort and do more longer, less spirited rides. But some Sunday afternoons I like to take the 600 out and rip up the local curves with the rest of the local nut cases.
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post #29 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 10:54 AM
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However my favorite bike overall is still my Ninja 1000. As I get older I desire more comfort and do more longer, less spirited rides.
This is why I think the middleweight supersport will go away. Even you admit that comfort is nice. For people that can only afford one bike, I think they'll find something comfy they can still cruise around on, and sacrifice the knife-edge precision.
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post #30 of 32 Old 03-22-2017, 12:26 PM
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I had one, its a lot of fun. Very torquey and great around town bike. I think you will love it.
Pretty sure you don't have a 765 RS as they haven't been released to the public yet (and I'll be one of the first out the door/on the road). I have the 675 and I agree if that's what you are referring to...I ride mine every day. The thing about the RS though is it's got a shit-load of torque above 8000rpm, so it will make an amazing track bike (even without a fairing). Watching them do 240kph at Catalunya was amazing. I'd be lucky to break 205kph on a straight with the current bike.

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Last edited by Sanctuary; 03-22-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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