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post #1 of 26 Old 04-03-2017, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Planning.

This is one of those areas we can all improve on.

It always offends someone when it's brought up, but it benefits us to talk about it.

Riding effectively is all about managing the situation for your best advantage. I've come to recognize a number of behaviors which give me a good read on another rider's mental state. The more hosed up I believe a rider to be, the further you will find me from them.

Where they place their bike in the lane when in motion, following distance, use of sightlines.... the gear they choose to wear.........

And how they handle their bike at very low speed.

The last one is particularly telling.

You can almost correlate the number of times someone puts their foot down coming to a stop to their riding experience. Less, is more.

Where they place that foot, gives great insight into their powers of observation..... it's so easy to put a foot wrong, so to speak. It also speaks volumes to their balance, confidence, and competence.

Thoughts?

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #2 of 26 Old 04-03-2017, 10:27 PM
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Someone on here said, "I pride myself on planning where I'm going to stop, and putting my foot down once. Each time I do is a 'win'."

I started doing that, and I believe it's at least a small part of what keeps me paying attention to everything, especially in city traffic. I also really like to not stop at all. If I see a light is right, or a gap in traffic I'm going to turn left through, I try to slow and just barely creep, doing a 'trackstand' like a bike, until I can move forward again. It does take knowing where your momentum is and is going, and gentle application of all controls.

Never ride faster than you can stop
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post #3 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RJ2112 View Post
This is one of those areas we can all improve on.

It always offends someone when it's brought up, but it benefits us to talk about it.

Riding effectively is all about managing the situation for your best advantage. I've come to recognize a number of behaviors which give me a good read on another rider's mental state. The more hosed up I believe a rider to be, the further you will find me from them.

Where they place their bike in the lane when in motion, following distance, use of sightlines.... the gear they choose to wear.........

And how they handle their bike at very low speed.

The last one is particularly telling.

You can almost correlate the number of times someone puts their foot down coming to a stop to their riding experience. Less, is more.

Where they place that foot, gives great insight into their powers of observation..... it's so easy to put a foot wrong, so to speak. It also speaks volumes to their balance, confidence, and competence.

Thoughts?
Great discussion topic and insight.

I too practice the 'put the foot down once' method and at this point it is an unconscious behavior. I absolutely agree with your observations though.

It is sad to say but as an instructor I can predict with pretty good accuracy who is going to crash at a track day by watching them roll into the pits after tech. There is a casual ease that comes with experience, and those who do not have it stand out like they are having a seizure. Sadly, no amount of 'hey, be careful out there' talks can help the situation. For some, experience is more costly than others.
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post #4 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 05:20 AM Thread Starter
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I've been working on 'sticking the landing' for many years.... and I still don't manage it, every time. Knowing what is 'normal' for me; how truly rarely it happens that I don't 'stick it' -- that tells me very quickly that I have something going on that is affecting my riding. It's a canary in the coal mine for me.... let's me know that I need to pay attention to something that is distracting me from the task at hand.

Factors that have to be taken into account are myriad.

Topography -- where you are trying to come to a stop dictates when and how your foot will touch down, and what you are going to stick your foot into when you do. The area around gas pumps used to be extremely treacherous, due to spilled coolant, oil, fuel, water from AC systems..... cars are so clean now, this isn't anywhere near the issue is was in decades past but it still exists. Which lane you are in also plays into how severely the crown of the road will 'roll off'. shoulder lanes are typically more acutely sloped than central lanes will be.... particularly around drainage points/culverts. Clogged storm drains are an edge trap of biblical proportions. Approach at your own risk.

Speed. When you approach a point you wish to stop at, scrubbing off a lot of speed affects how the suspension is loaded. When the fork is compressed, it quickens the steering. That can be quite a lot.... if you don't account for it, the change can catch you out. If you are relying on the traction at the point you wish to stop at, you are placing yourself in the hands of someone else -- there is no guarantee that traction is uniform, and absolutely no assurance that the area where people typically stop will be as clean as places where cars are constantly in motion. Dear old Dad used to tell me to do 90% of my braking in the first 10% of the space available.... not an effective track technique; but it pays HUGE dividends on the street.

so much more to this....

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #5 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 06:48 AM
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I couldn't agree more that planning is a HUGE part of riding safely. I think that watching other riders and viewing their foot placement at stops is one of many cues I rely on almost subconsciously to determine whether someone will be a riding partner of mine.

I'm very selective about who I ride with. I was riding with a large local group that set up rides on a web forum. Then about 1/2 dozen of us started setting up "secret rides" to get away from some unsafe and/or unskilled riders. We were very comfortable riding together, did track days together, etc.

Ultimately I sold my CBR 1000rr years ago due to a lack of quality people to ride with in the area. I barely rode it and decided to sell as it was depreciating. Now I'm re-building a '03 zx6r I came across for free. I won't mind it sitting if I only ride a few times a month.
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post #6 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
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Planning as much of the interaction you KNOW you are going to have with everything around you as a rider is a skill set that increases as a direct result of your ability to process information coming at you in a constant, huge, flow.

Knowing how to sort that info so that you can apply the appropriate level of attention to ALL of it.... that takes time to learn. They teach it in every school I have ever attended.... scanning at different distances and at different rates to keep the updates accurate..... a priceless skill.

I always place the bike so I can see as far as possible, and be seen as soon as possible so there is more time to adjust my behavior to match my prediction of the situation that is developing around me.

This is a very personal assessment; it isn't going to be the same for any two riders. I'd like to think that most of the people I have ridden with are in a similar space, when it comes to their version of risk assessment -- I know for a fact, it's rare indeed for others to view the whole scenario the same way I do.

Not saying my process is better than anyone else's..... just that I am uncomfortable letting others judge what is 'safe' or acceptable, for me.

The flip side of this is the hardest thing I have had to do; going through a class and having a coach tell me something I am doing could be done differently and that the change would be better for me overall -- I typically take insult at that.... the idea that someone else may know more than me (!). Humility has never been my strong suit. I have come to recognize that those hard lessons are the ones that pay the most dividends. I have nothing to lose by parking my ego at the door, and trying something different. Except some level of risk......
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"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #7 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RJ2112 View Post
I have nothing to lose by parking my ego at the door, and trying something different. Except some level of risk......
If only more people could do this...
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post #8 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 10:51 AM
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I have done what you are talking about for years. I also like to play the game when I get to a gas pump or home from a ride I try not to put my foot down... I put out the kickstand and get off in one motion as I'm stopping the bike. sometimes I miss and have to put a foot down but I get it most of the time.... I don't do it where there is opportunity to really mess up and not to the point that if I screw up I'll drop it...
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post #9 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 11:05 AM
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I always think, "the more the merrier" when it comes to riding in the canyons. But many times I have been proven wrong and I soon say " I hope we make it through this ride and the new guy doesn't hurt himself.
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post #10 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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I always think, "the more the merrier" when it comes to riding in the canyons. But many times I have been proven wrong and I soon say " I hope we make it through this ride and the new guy doesn't hurt himself.
All of my experiences with group riding have given me the impression that there is always someone who wants to prove something, and sooner or later someone gets pushed past their skill set/experience, and don't know what to do with what happens next.

I am a very, very strong proponent of street riding as less than 100% of what is possible. Plenty of jollies to be had, at 80% max... the margin you keep on the table cannot be replaced by superior skills.....
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"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #11 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
If only more people could do this...
Michael,

It does not come easily to any of us..... so many of us who ride do so out of rebellion from conformity; the very act of accepting guidance runs counter to that whole mind set. Learning to rein that in, and actually LISTEN?

I know in my case, I wasn't willing to listen until I had the scars to remind me that I didn't know enough about what I was doing...... the longer I've been alive, the more I recognize that my level of discomfort is a very good indicator of my ignorance, and that I should confront that. I try and 'run to the sound of the guns'; at least where I feel personal discomfort. Doing the easy stuff doesn't get much, in the way or rewards.
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"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #12 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 12:40 PM
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[QUOTE=RJ2112;1416770]Planning as much of the interaction you KNOW you are going to have with everything around you as a rider is a skill set that increases as a direct result of your ability to process information coming at you in a constant, huge, flow.

Knowing how to sort that info so that you can apply the appropriate level of attention to ALL of it.... that takes time to learn. They teach it in every school I have ever attended.... scanning at different distances and at different rates to keep the updates accurate..... a priceless skill.

I always place the bike so I can see as far as possible, and be seen as soon as possible so there is more time to adjust my behavior to match my prediction of the situation that is developing around me.

This is a very personal assessment; it isn't going to be the same for any two riders. I'd like to think that most of the people I have ridden with are in a similar space, when it comes to their version of risk assessment -- I know for a fact, it's rare indeed for others to view the whole scenario the same way I do.

Not saying my process is better than anyone else's..... just that I am uncomfortable letting others judge what is 'safe' or acceptable, for me.

The flip side of this is the hardest thing I have had to do; going through a class and having a coach tell me something I am doing could be done differently and that the change would be better for me overall -- I typically take insult at that.... the idea that someone else may know more than me (!). Humility has never been my strong suit. I have come to recognize that those hard lessons are the ones that pay the most dividends. I have nothing to lose by parking my ego at the door, and trying something different. Except some level of risk......[/QUO


I've said this before, but I'll reiterated it once again, RJ & Slo are my Forum heroes.

They are willing to speak out whilst others only quietly ponder - alone. I believe what all Homo sapiens require in order to find homeostasis is community. What do we do with the worst criminals? Solitary confinement!

I always congnizantly place my foot when I come to a stop. Always is a mighty big word when use in this tense. But it's true. How can I use be so sure? because I dropped my prize VFR750F not once but thrice because I was merely inattentive. What a dumb ass I was - F-ing moron! But the School of Hard Knocks is a ruthless institution! It expects no quarter, and most certainly gives no quarter.

Now I make a wee game of it with myself at choosing a specific spot on the tarmac to place my foot (some oddity in colour, etc). I have learned not to stop on oil/transmission spills; painted markings, and especially wet painted markings of any kind. I'll change lanes if required. I've seen for myself, Racing Gods like Doohan, Schwantz, Mladin, Haga, Rossi, & Lorenzo, etc, all go out on a early morning practice - and even a few during actual wet races touch the painted kerbing and lose it all as they go down.

I vividly remember when I was living Corvallis, OR going to school, my house mates & I saw a fellow on an early Manx drop it at every traffic light - he as grossly intoxicated. I was nearly to tears - literally. It was sacrilegious for me. A horrible crime! We convinced him to get in my car and allow me to ride it to his apartment. It may sound silly, but I possess a high degree of mechanical empathy, which sent me to a altered state.

Yes, I realise that I very well might be different, after all motorbikes are inanimate objects - possessions. For most people I presume, but not for me. Thus, this unusual state of mind, I am most specific: I may not be what educators call a "First time learner, but I am trainable. And ultimately that really is what this discussion is about. The ability, nea, the responsibility to care for our bike(s), and ourselves; the responsibility to our households to not incur any financial loss as a result of simple stupidity.
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post #13 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mharrison View Post
I couldn't agree more that planning is a HUGE part of riding safely. I think that watching other riders and viewing their foot placement at stops is one of many cues I rely on almost subconsciously to determine whether someone will be a riding partner of mine.

I'm very selective about who I ride with. I was riding with a large local group that set up rides on a web forum. Then about 1/2 dozen of us started setting up "secret rides" to get away from some unsafe and/or unskilled riders. We were very comfortable riding together, did track days together, etc.

Ultimately I sold my CBR 1000rr years ago due to a lack of quality people to ride with in the area. I barely rode it and decided to sell as it was depreciating. Now I'm re-building a '03 zx6r I came across for free. I won't mind it sitting if I only ride a few times a month.
It's the same thing with gun safety...... you discover very, very quickly who you feel comfortable with, and it is obvious when there is a lack of discipline. It was drilled in at a very early age...... always treat a gun as if it is loaded, and never, ever point one at someone you don't intend to shoot.

I'd rather not go shooting, if there are any shenanigans going on. The opportunity for disaster is too great......
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"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #14 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Group riding comes very difficulty to me, because I want each rider to respect the others in the group. It's usually such a cluster trying to get to that point of trust, the risks destroy any enjoyment I may have expected.

I can't get into the space I want/need to ride in, with a group of more than two or three..... If the rider's can break up into little clusters, that might work....

"Basic stuff fellas. Use your head for something other than to break your next fall."

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
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post #15 of 26 Old 04-04-2017, 08:02 PM
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I don't like shooting with very many people. I'm real picky about that.

I've never ridden in a big group personally. Usually just me and 2-3 other people max and they're all people I trust, so that's nice.
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