Track suspension/geometry set up - Page 11 - ZX6R Forum
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post #151 of 164 Old 02-28-2017, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
That's a TTX RT. Mine is a GP. I imagine length is the same, but not totally sure.

Also, did you check to see if yours was on the recall list? I posted a thread about that last week when I found out mine is. Just sent it in to Ohlins USA yesterday.
Did not know about the recall. I will check when I get home.
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post #152 of 164 Old 03-01-2017, 06:38 AM
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So ignore anything I say about suspension. I'm an idiot lol! Dug out my rebuild paper....
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post #153 of 164 Old 05-04-2017, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post

That aside, running wide is almost always attributed to swingarm angle. Any idea what you are running?
Please elaborate.
Throttle goes on...angle decreases...wheelbase shortens....causing.....front to push out?

Do i just loosen my swingarm and increase my wheel base?

Should lowering the forks in the triple essentially do the same thing?
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post #154 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 5hift View Post
Please elaborate.
Throttle goes on...angle decreases...wheelbase shortens....causing.....front to push out?

Do i just loosen my swingarm and increase my wheel base?

Should lowering the forks in the triple essentially do the same thing?
No no no...don't do that. This isn't a simple "do this and everything will be great' kind of thing.

Running wide is because of too much squat in the rear under acceleration. There is a lot to consider and unfortunately I do not have the time right now to go into it. I will try to post something later today.
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post #155 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 06:56 AM
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I'd strongly recommend waiting for @PainfullySlo to write something up, as changing one thing in your suspension geometry can push things wildly out of control.

Assuming that you have the essential foundations of your sag and ride height spot on (and there's no point making adjustments if they aren't), there will be several adjustments to be made. Running wide under acceleration means your shock is compressing too much. Dropping the forks through the yokes will shorten the wheelbase (increasing turn speed), but will also have negative knock-on effects without resolving the root cause.

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post #156 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Twistee View Post
I'd strongly recommend waiting for @PainfullySlo to write something up, as changing one thing in your suspension geometry can push things wildly out of control.

Assuming that you have the essential foundations of your sag and ride height spot on (and there's no point making adjustments if they aren't), there will be several adjustments to be made. Running wide under acceleration means your shock is compressing too much. Dropping the forks through the yokes will shorten the wheelbase (increasing turn speed), but will also have negative knock-on effects without resolving the root cause.
I perhaps oversimplified the question but yes, I won't be making any arbitrary changes just yet, and never do without documented measurement, before & after. Sag and ride height are set and forks are at standard height in top triple. When i say dropping the forks in the triple I mean having the fork caps just about flush with the triple instead of the 11mm. Doing this raises the front height and increases the wheelbase no?
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post #157 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 5hift View Post
I perhaps oversimplified the question but yes, I won't be making any arbitrary changes just yet, and never do without documented measurement, before & after. Sag and ride height are set and forks are at standard height in top triple. When i say dropping the forks in the triple I mean having the fork caps just about flush with the triple instead of the 11mm. Doing this raises the front height and increases the wheelbase no?
Lowering the fork tubes through the triple clamps would increase the wheelbase, but on a very small level (this varies to a much greater degree when the forks compress under braking). What would be the far greater effects would be to alter the balance of weight toward the rear and dramatically slow turn-in. 11mm is not a small adjustment!

Around the apex, you want your front rebound to be set correctly to ensure you're able to control your line on exit. Past the apex, you need the rear compression to squat just enough to dig for traction.

Your shock's compression is the heart of your issue rather than the forks. This isn't going to be a situation where making one adjustment is going to cure everything, and certainly not raising the front by ~10mm. Suspension geometry and refining the settings are never that simple. It's not the black art that many claim, but every aspect is interconnected in one way or another. Weather conditions and even changing your brake pads can require significant adjustments.

BTW, if you're not already doing so, I can recommend my old habit: Keep a notebook with your suspension settings, tyre choice, weather conditions on the day, etc. It'll get you in the ballpark a lot quicker the next time you're at that track.
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1999 ZX6R (G2) - Pipewerx exhaust (dB killer removed) | Dynojet Stage 1 | K&N air filter | flushmount front LED indicators | Clear LED tail light with integrated indicators | Scottoiler eSystem | Pyramid Plastics hugger | HID headlight | Stubby levers | HEL braided steel lines | 07 ZX6R radial master cylinder | Bar-end mirrors | Double-bubble screen | Crash bobbins | one hell of an anal-retentive owner.

Last edited by Twistee; 05-05-2017 at 11:13 AM.
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post #158 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Twistee View Post
Lowering the fork tubes through the triple clamps would increase the wheelbase, but on a very small level (this varies to a much greater degree when the forks compress under braking). What would be the far greater effects would be to alter the balance of weight toward the rear and dramatically slow turn-in. 11mm is not a small adjustment!

Around the apex, you want your front rebound to be set correctly to ensure you're able to control your line on exit. Past the apex, you need the rear compression to squat just enough to dig for traction.

Your shock's compression is the heart of your issue rather than the forks. This isn't going to be a situation where making one adjustment is going to cure everything, and certainly not raising the front by ~10mm. Suspension geometry and refining the settings are never that simple. It's not the black art that many claim, but every aspect is interconnected in one way or another. Weather conditions and even changing your brake pads can require significant adjustments.

BTW, if you're not already doing so, I can recommend my old habit: Keep a notebook with your suspension settings, tyre choice, weather conditions on the day, etc. It'll get you in the ballpark a lot quicker the next time you're at that track.
Ok much thanks. I am indeed keeping a notebook and I did do some slowing of rebound last time out to try to keep the squish in forks just a bit longer. I'll focus my attention on the shock next instead of adjusting the forks.
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post #159 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 12:55 PM
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I have written up a bunch to put down but for some reason this forum will not allow me to create new threads. Anyone else running into this?>
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post #160 of 164 Old 05-05-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 5hift View Post
Ok much thanks. I am indeed keeping a notebook and I did do some slowing of rebound last time out to try to keep the squish in forks just a bit longer. I'll focus my attention on the shock next instead of adjusting the forks.
It's just my process, but after the physical components (spring rates, valving, oil weight, etc) comes setting the static and rider sag and the ride height. These are the cornerstones as changing physical components will pretty much universally affect the base sag levels. Once these are set, the forks should come next. My order of focus was always preload, then rebound and then compression damping. Once the forks are set up, I'd set up the rear in the same order with preload, rebound, compression.

Make literally one change at a time. If you add two click of rebound to the front, change the rear preload, drop the forks 5mm, etc, you'll end up in a complete bugger's muddle. You'll also very likely find that making an adjustment to one setting at one end will affect another setting at the other. Once you have your base settings, you can ride a couple of laps, making mental notes of the performance of the suspension (running wide, slow turn-in, twitchy on exit, etc).

Make notes of what your base settings are. If someone completely changed all your preload/rebound/compression, you should be able to set these to the correct bases within a couple of minutes. Once you've got your base settings, you can tweak things to match the circuit and conditions. If you have notes as to what you used before, you can set these in seconds, test them against any changes (to the bike or changed conditions) in a few laps and adjust them if necessary.

Afterward, while it still sits fresh in your memory, make a few notes about the settings you used on the day. If there was something that could well have been better if you'd had a chance to change it, record it.

Learning the feel of a change in your suspension settings takes experience to notice (unless it's really dramatic). The mechanics of suspension is one thing, but recognising the effects of those changes is probably more important.

Using a track day or two to focus on getting your suspension base setting just right pays serious dividends when it comes to going faster. It's not the rider who has the most powerful, lightest or stickiest tyred bike on the grid that usually wins. In my experience, it's most often the one that got their suspension setup just right.
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1999 ZX6R (G2) - Pipewerx exhaust (dB killer removed) | Dynojet Stage 1 | K&N air filter | flushmount front LED indicators | Clear LED tail light with integrated indicators | Scottoiler eSystem | Pyramid Plastics hugger | HID headlight | Stubby levers | HEL braided steel lines | 07 ZX6R radial master cylinder | Bar-end mirrors | Double-bubble screen | Crash bobbins | one hell of an anal-retentive owner.
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post #161 of 164 Old 05-06-2017, 07:17 AM
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Here is a start of it. More to come as I get time.

Strategies in track riding/road racing:My bike runs wide under acceleration
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post #162 of 164 Old 05-06-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5hift View Post
Ok much thanks. I am indeed keeping a notebook and I did do some slowing of rebound last time out to try to keep the squish in forks just a bit longer. I'll focus my attention on the shock next instead of adjusting the forks.
There are a number of easy to print sheets out there if you don't already have them.


NetSuite | Page Not Found

http://motorace.by/images/downloads/...etup-guide.pdf

Suspension Tuning by Dave Moss

Track Time: Track Data Sheet | Motorcyclist


Motorcycle setup sheets and free downloads
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post #163 of 164 Old 05-06-2017, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Twistee View Post
It's just my process, but after the physical components (spring rates, valving, oil weight, etc) comes setting the static and rider sag and the ride height. These are the cornerstones as changing physical components will pretty much universally affect the base sag levels. Once these are set, the forks should come next. My order of focus was always preload, then rebound and then compression damping. Once the forks are set up, I'd set up the rear in the same order with preload, rebound, compression.

Make literally one change at a time. If you add two click of rebound to the front, change the rear preload, drop the forks 5mm, etc, you'll end up in a complete bugger's muddle. You'll also very likely find that making an adjustment to one setting at one end will affect another setting at the other. Once you have your base settings, you can ride a couple of laps, making mental notes of the performance of the suspension (running wide, slow turn-in, twitchy on exit, etc).

Make notes of what your base settings are. If someone completely changed all your preload/rebound/compression, you should be able to set these to the correct bases within a couple of minutes. Once you've got your base settings, you can tweak things to match the circuit and conditions. If you have notes as to what you used before, you can set these in seconds, test them against any changes (to the bike or changed conditions) in a few laps and adjust them if necessary.

Afterward, while it still sits fresh in your memory, make a few notes about the settings you used on the day. If there was something that could well have been better if you'd had a chance to change it, record it.

Learning the feel of a change in your suspension settings takes experience to notice (unless it's really dramatic). The mechanics of suspension is one thing, but recognising the effects of those changes is probably more important.

Using a track day or two to focus on getting your suspension base setting just right pays serious dividends when it comes to going faster. It's not the rider who has the most powerful, lightest or stickiest tyred bike on the grid that usually wins. In my experience, it's most often the one that got their suspension setup just right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Here is a start of it. More to come as I get time.

Strategies in track riding/road racing:My bike runs wide under acceleration
This is why I'll always big up zx6r.com ....thank you all very much. I hope the next report i give you is all good news. Gotta get a Bryce pic too
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post #164 of 164 Old 05-23-2017, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Twistee View Post
It's just my process, but after the physical components (spring rates, valving, oil weight, etc) comes setting the static and rider sag and the ride height. These are the cornerstones as changing physical components will pretty much universally affect the base sag levels. Once these are set, the forks should come next. My order of focus was always preload, then rebound and then compression damping. Once the forks are set up, I'd set up the rear in the same order with preload, rebound, compression.

Make literally one change at a time. If you add two click of rebound to the front, change the rear preload, drop the forks 5mm, etc, you'll end up in a complete bugger's muddle. You'll also very likely find that making an adjustment to one setting at one end will affect another setting at the other. Once you have your base settings, you can ride a couple of laps, making mental notes of the performance of the suspension (running wide, slow turn-in, twitchy on exit, etc).

Make notes of what your base settings are. If someone completely changed all your preload/rebound/compression, you should be able to set these to the correct bases within a couple of minutes. Once you've got your base settings, you can tweak things to match the circuit and conditions. If you have notes as to what you used before, you can set these in seconds, test them against any changes (to the bike or changed conditions) in a few laps and adjust them if necessary.

Afterward, while it still sits fresh in your memory, make a few notes about the settings you used on the day. If there was something that could well have been better if you'd had a chance to change it, record it.

Learning the feel of a change in your suspension settings takes experience to notice (unless it's really dramatic). The mechanics of suspension is one thing, but recognising the effects of those changes is probably more important.

Using a track day or two to focus on getting your suspension base setting just right pays serious dividends when it comes to going faster. It's not the rider who has the most powerful, lightest or stickiest tyred bike on the grid that usually wins. In my experience, it's most often the one that got their suspension setup just right.
Incidentally I dropped the forks in the triple 5mm and the bike had "voila" feel... I will try it at my "home" track and see if the laptimes reflect the change in confidence. But I shaved buckets of time off our 2nd track (which is much nicer in my opinion) So i'm hoping for similar results. Will also use another trackday to see if 5 more mm feels even better since the bike seems to like the added trail.
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