Track suspension/geometry set up - Page 3 - ZX6R Forum
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post #31 of 164 Old 04-14-2016, 08:31 PM
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That is why I used OR. Basically I was just saying if you go back and reread the threads, there are different ways of doing it and while one setup works for one person on their bike with thier components, it may not work for you. I didn't find the magic bullet but maybe I read them differently.
I know that Dan, but the idea is to not spend months trying EVERYTHING out when the data is out there and others have already done it and there is a general idea for what works and what doesn't which can be used as a good starting point. I did the same thing with my 1198. Got all the geometry and suspension suggestions from Dan Kyle from Kyle Racing who had a ton of experience with those particular bikes, and I went from there. It was a great starting point...not necessarily the best for me, but pretty close. Ended up only making a few minor tweaks.

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post #32 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 02:35 AM
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The previous owner told me that he raised the rear, but didn't say how much. And after looking at the bike a bit, I can't even figure out how to adjust the rear ride height if needed What am I missing? My Ducati had a ride height adjuster connecting the swing arm to the shock link. All you had to do is turn it one way to raise, or the other way to lower. How do you do it on the ZX6R? And what's the standard for measuring it and what's a good range for baseline? (of course tire diameter will change that).



I also know a local guy who's very fast on his '09 and though he hasn't given me actual numbers for anything, he did tell me that he set it up with a raised rear and that solved the commonly known chatter issues when trail-braking, but he said he has some spacers in the forks...?? I don't think I'm fast enough to see any chatter issues regardless, but I'm just trying to learn more about this bike. I knew my previous bike pretty much inside and out especially when it came to geometry. I know each bike is different in setup, like what works and what doesn't, so I'm trying to get a better idea for what I should do on this. I'm not too worried because I "assume" (key word there), that the bike is set up fairly well already since it was a CMRA race bike and owned by a guy of similar weight as me also, but I'd still like to know any tips so I can mess around with it and find what works best for me throughout the season as I get more used to it.

You will need spacers in the fork if you raise the rear. Start with setting it to stock. Stock geometry is aggressive as it is. Then start playing with it. If you do not have 0 to start from, it will probably just be a mess. And no, slo is not trolling. A raised rear and lowered front WILL give you headshakes, pretty damn evil ones too. I had the headshake of my life in about 200 kph after lowering the front 8mm from the fork top. I thought 5mm is stock and for lazy street riders, ill go 3mm lower. Tried it for three laps and those laps were the worst of my life. Worse then my first trackday when i crashed in the first corner, first lap, first session. It was headshakes out of and into almost every corner, and as soon as i was over about 160 kph.



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post #33 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
I know that Dan, but the idea is to not spend months trying EVERYTHING out when the data is out there and others have already done it and there is a general idea for what works and what doesn't which can be used as a good starting point. I did the same thing with my 1198. Got all the geometry and suspension suggestions from Dan Kyle from Kyle Racing who had a ton of experience with those particular bikes, and I went from there. It was a great starting point...not necessarily the best for me, but pretty close. Ended up only making a few minor tweaks.
I absolutely agree. I was just pointing out the differing opinions and it could depend on the bike, components and person. Which one is more righter as a starting point?

Didn't the person you bought it from provide any details as to what and why?
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post #34 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 04:19 AM
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You could put your bike on Eric's geometry machine and he can measure everything for you and likely has access to numbers on the setups of some very fast guys. I put my new ZX10 on his machine and confirmed what he already new, that the bike had too much trail from the factory. I put 9mm of shims above the shock which brought the rear up 18mm and got all the numbers closer to what a couple of the really fast guys are running. The nice thing about putting the bike on the machine is you can make the change in the computer without actually changing the bike to see how it's going to effect all the other geometry numbers. You can also see how running a particular set of tires over another set will effect geometry.

Here were the stock numbers the day we measured the bike on the way home from picking it up from the dealer:





Eric's shop if interested:

Motorcycle Suspension & Chassis Services
https://www.facebook.com/VelocityCalibrations/

On my '08 600s I believe I have about 10mm of washers (possibly much less than that, I don't remember what I ended up with) above the shocks which seemed to make them turn in really well.
Off Camber likes this.

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Last edited by trackdayhero; 04-15-2016 at 04:22 AM.
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post #35 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 04:32 AM
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Farrell Performance never emailed me back unfortunately...maybe they don't want to give out their secrets
In the racing world, geometry is EVERYTHING. All of the top riders have skill, talent, and drive. Often the difference between 1st and 5th is whomever has the best setup.

Basically asking a racer for his geometry is the equivalent of asking if you can sleep with his wife. I am not at all surprised that he does not want to give out his geometry.

I am probably going to get drummed out of racing for this but it has been asked enough times that I suppose that I really should just put it out there.

This is for a 2013+. I do not know if the frame/geometry on the earlier gens is the same but I believe the 09+ are all set up this way.

This is a STARTING POINT. I have made many adjustments since this time but it will get you to the point where you should be making adjustments for personal riding style. Most notably my current setup has a little less front ride height and less trail.

Use at your own risk. Do not share this off of the forum. At least if people are using it they should be contributing to the community.

The first two pages are with the original S20 tires since I rolled this bike essentially off the showroom floor to my suspension tuner.

The second two pages are with Pirelli SuperCorsa V2s.









Not all bikes are set up the same from the factory, which is why it isnt easy to say "go up this much or down this much". These are the ending numbers that will give you a place to build off of. Key things to note are rear ride height, front ride height, and swingarm slope.
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post #36 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 05:38 AM
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You will need spacers in the fork if you raise the rear. Start with setting it to stock. Stock geometry is aggressive as it is. Then start playing with it. If you do not have 0 to start from, it will probably just be a mess. And no, slo is not trolling. A raised rear and lowered front WILL give you headshakes, pretty damn evil ones too. I had the headshake of my life in about 200 kph after lowering the front 8mm from the fork top. I thought 5mm is stock and for lazy street riders, ill go 3mm lower. Tried it for three laps and those laps were the worst of my life. Worse then my first trackday when i crashed in the first corner, first lap, first session. It was headshakes out of and into almost every corner, and as soon as i was over about 160 kph.
I don't know what stock is. I bought this bike as a race bike like I said before. That's why I said I need numbers. I know what "less of this" and "more of that" does, I just want to know ballpark values and where/how to measure them to make sure I'm on the same page. And I didn't say Slo was trolling...I know he's right...I was saying X was trolling for suggesting every possible combination, including the ones that don't work such as low front and raised rear

Quote:
Originally Posted by XPyrion View Post
I absolutely agree. I was just pointing out the differing opinions and it could depend on the bike, components and person. Which one is more righter as a starting point?

Didn't the person you bought it from provide any details as to what and why?
Nope, he didn't know shit! lol...from my understanding he was one of those guys who took his bike to someone else and said "make it better", and then picked it up later without knowing what they did to it. Which is fine I suppose...some people just really don't care to understand any of this and they just want to ride and pay someone else to take care of all of this for them. I'm not like that though. Being an engineer, I probably care "too much" about all little details and I always seem to want to understand how everything works, even if it probably won't make a damn difference to my lap times

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post #37 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 05:45 AM
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That's a lot of good info Todd and Slo! Thanks a bunch! I have to go to work now, but I'll be looking at that in more details later tonight.

Just to be clear though...I think I'm starting to understand why I'm confused about the rear height. On a STOCK ZX6R, the only way to change height is to shim the shock, using spacers/washers?? But if I have an Ohlins TTX shock, don't they have ride height adjustability built into them (on the bottom, where it connects to the clevis)?


Slo, I like your analogy about geometry and asking to sleep with their wife! LOL....technically I asked Marr (his wife) because it's her bike now. She's got an '09 that Jason used to race before he got the new gen 636. I figured there would be no harm in sharing info since it's for a 7-year old bike that he doesn't even race anymore, and I don't think she races quite that competitively anyway (in other words, she's not going for CCS or ASRA championships), so I don't see why it would be threatening to share info to a slow amateur

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post #38 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 07:35 AM
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Hah, I was posting while TDH posted his info as well. VERY interesting to see the differences between the ZX10 and the ZX6. Wheelbase and trail in particular are noteworthy. I expected a longer wheelbase but less trail to counter. It seems to me that it must be difficult steering, at least compared to our 600s.

Also interesting that our ride heights are only 2.5mm different, and I have lowered mine since those original numbers and I would be willing to bet it is right about where yours is set.
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post #39 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 11:47 AM
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I raised the rear 18mm higher (9mm at the shock) than what my baseline chart shows I don't have an image of where everything currently is at. I don't have much time on it since setting it up that way either so not sure if it's where I'm going to like it.

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post #40 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdayhero View Post
I raised the rear 18mm higher (9mm at the shock) than what my baseline chart shows I don't have an image of where everything currently is at. I don't have much time on it since setting it up that way either so not sure if it's where I'm going to like it.
I will be interested to hear how you like it. I am just over 22mm up in the back from where it came from the factory, but my front is much taller than that.
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post #41 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 03:50 PM
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Todd, I might've asked you this at Hallett but I forgot...any idea how much a machine like that cost, like the one used at Velocity Calibrations? I would totally do that, but it's hard for me to justify the 6-7 hour drive just for that :/

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post #42 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 04:16 PM
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I'm not sure I understand the point of using a machine like that, are you going to try to custom fabricate parts?
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post #43 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 06:24 PM
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Todd, I might've asked you this at Hallett but I forgot...any idea how much a machine like that cost, like the one used at Velocity Calibrations? I would totally do that, but it's hard for me to justify the 6-7 hour drive just for that :/
He lists a price on this page with some explanation ($300):

Motorcycle Geometry

To be honest, I think just spending the day talking geometry with Eric while he is setting up and measuring your bike is worth that. I'll see him at the track tomorrow if you want any more info, Actually, if you're interested I could get him to chime in on this thread. I learned more just talking geometry during all the measurements than I ever knew. Of course I already forgot most of it. He's very good at drawing things out on his whiteboard and helping you understand what's going on and how changing a certain aspect of your geometry will change how the bike behaves. Does the bike want to run wide? Does it push into the corner? etc, etc.

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post #44 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 06:27 PM
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I'm not sure I understand the point of using a machine like that, are you going to try to custom fabricate parts?
No, it's just to get measurements on all aspects of your geometry and know if you're off in one direction or another and he can make hypothetical changes in the computer to see how that will effect all of the other measurements. It'll also tell you if your frame is bent, etc. He's even got a frame straightening machine. Actually my brand new ZX10 showed it had a bent frame, but he told me before even hooking the machine up it was going to do that. I guess because his software didn't yet have the update for the 2016 ZX10R.

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post #45 of 164 Old 04-15-2016, 07:02 PM
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Main reason I asked about the machine cost is because I was wondering if it may be worth investing in it and do the same thing for people locally for a fee of course. That way maybe in a few years it would pay for itself, and then it would be good to have for any future bike.

I looked it up and didn't see a price on the manufacturer's website (made in Germany). There just aren't many places that have something like that and I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't feel like driving so far away for a $300 service, despite how much I would learn.

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2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (sold)
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