Track suspension/geometry set up - Page 4 - ZX6R Forum
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post #46 of 152 Old 04-15-2016, 07:09 PM
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Don't quote me on this but I think I recall him saying he paid around $25k for it used. He also spent a lot of time with Lenny Albin learning how to use it.

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post #47 of 152 Old 04-15-2016, 07:09 PM
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In the racing world, geometry is EVERYTHING. All of the top riders have skill, talent, and drive. Often the difference between 1st and 5th is whomever has the best setup.

Basically asking a racer for his geometry is the equivalent of asking if you can sleep with his wife. I am not at all surprised that he does not want to give out his geometry.

I am probably going to get drummed out of racing for this but it has been asked enough times that I suppose that I really should just put it out there.

This is for a 2013+. I do not know if the frame/geometry on the earlier gens is the same but I believe the 09+ are all set up this way.

This is a STARTING POINT. I have made many adjustments since this time but it will get you to the point where you should be making adjustments for personal riding style. Most notably my current setup has a little less front ride height and less trail.

Use at your own risk. Do not share this off of the forum. At least if people are using it they should be contributing to the community.

The first two pages are with the original S20 tires since I rolled this bike essentially off the showroom floor to my suspension tuner.

The second two pages are with Pirelli SuperCorsa V2s.

Not all bikes are set up the same from the factory, which is why it isnt easy to say "go up this much or down this much". These are the ending numbers that will give you a place to build off of. Key things to note are rear ride height, front ride height, and swingarm slope.
So why does it say "0.00" for rear ride height?? Doesn't make much sense to me...

And on the front height, do you know from what point to what point it was measured?

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post #48 of 152 Old 04-15-2016, 07:10 PM
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Don't quote me on this but I think I recall him saying he paid around $25k for it used.
Holy shit!!!

Yeah...never mind then lol....I was thinking it might be worth it if it's like under $3k or so. But $25k is insane, especially used.

Then again, now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense. I don't even know why I imagined it being much cheaper than that when you figure out all the sensors and parts that go into it plus the software!

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
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post #49 of 152 Old 04-15-2016, 07:13 PM
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Eric also just got selected to be the K-Tech rep at all the MotoAmerica rounds. I'll see him at the track tomorrow and ask what he's got in the machine. The travel expenses to work with Lenny probably cost as much as the machine. Also, and I may be wrong on this, but I think he and Lenny are the only two in the US with these machines. I'll try to verify that tomorrow as well.

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post #50 of 152 Old 04-15-2016, 07:18 PM
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Eric also just got selected to be the K-Tech rep at all the MotoAmerica rounds. I'll see him at the track tomorrow and ask what he's got in the machine. The travel expenses to work with Lenny probably cost as much as the machine. Also, and I may be wrong on this, but I think he and Lenny are the only two in the US with these machines. I'll try to verify that tomorrow as well.
On the manufacturer's website they had listed 5 locations, and Velocity Calibrations wasn't one of them...maybe because he got it used and didn't register or something??

Lenny was on there, as was RaceTech, and a few other places I never heard of.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

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post #51 of 152 Old 04-15-2016, 07:39 PM
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I wonder if the list may be out of date, and I'll bet Eric probably bought his from one of those 5 locations. He just picked it up last year.

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post #52 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 05:43 AM
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I've been racing the 09-12 zx6r for 4-5 years now in CCS and have experimented with geometry (taking input from other racers and race mechanics). I've noticed (at least for my style of riding) this bike likes A LOT of trail so you have to raise the front quite a bit. I am running the 30 MM ohlins front cartridges on mine (which when installed increases the front fork length by 10-11 MM) and in addition to this I drop the forks another 5 MM so they are flush with the top triple, so we are talking about a approximate 15mm increase in front ride height, and a stock rear ride height (I actually just removed my factory shim to lower the rear ride height by 2-3 MM at the shock, because I switched to Pirelli from Michelin). I've found that if you increase the rear ride height, it makes the bike transition faster, but I get too much head shake/tank slapping throttling out of the corners, so I keep the rear low. Also with the rear raised, I feel like I get way more mid corner chatter, and front slides. I became quite good at saving front end slides, until I lowered my rear back down to stock height (increasing trail) and I feel this gave the bike much needed front end grip. With the stock rear ride height I've also found that you can trail brake much much harder without lifting/sliding the rear. YMMV. Keep in mind riding styles vary greatly so one person's setup may not work for another, also your body position and body size/weight play huge roles in this as well.
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post #53 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 05:50 AM
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You said you had too much trail so you raised the front. Raising the front would increase the trail (and rake) even more no?

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post #54 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdayhero View Post
You said you had too much trail so you raised the front. Raising the front would increase the trail (and rake) even more no?
Correct raising the front (while keeping the rear height the same) would increase trail. Not sure where I said "too much trail", maybe I made a typo somewhere. Anyways hopefully my settings might help someone out there, because when I first started with this bike there was literally ZERO setup information out there, and it was very frustrating, especially when facing a virtually 90% yamaha filled grid lol.
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post #55 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 06:21 AM
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Oops, I misread your post. You said it "likes" a lot of trail. I thought you said it "had" a lot of trail. Duh.

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post #56 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sonicnofadz View Post
I've been racing the 09-12 zx6r for 4-5 years now in CCS and have experimented with geometry (taking input from other racers and race mechanics). I've noticed (at least for my style of riding) this bike likes A LOT of trail so you have to raise the front quite a bit. I am running the 30 MM ohlins front cartridges on mine (which when installed increases the front fork length by 10-11 MM) and in addition to this I drop the forks another 5 MM so they are flush with the top triple, so we are talking about a approximate 15mm increase in front ride height, and a stock rear ride height (I actually just removed my factory shim to lower the rear ride height by 2-3 MM at the shock, because I switched to Pirelli from Michelin). I've found that if you increase the rear ride height, it makes the bike transition faster, but I get too much head shake/tank slapping throttling out of the corners, so I keep the rear low. Also with the rear raised, I feel like I get way more mid corner chatter, and front slides. I became quite good at saving front end slides, until I lowered my rear back down to stock height (increasing trail) and I feel this gave the bike much needed front end grip. With the stock rear ride height I've also found that you can trail brake much much harder without lifting/sliding the rear. YMMV. Keep in mind riding styles vary greatly so one person's setup may not work for another, also your body position and body size/weight play huge roles in this as well.
Interesting to see this for sure. This is pretty much exactly opposite of what I've heard from others.

Do you have a stock shock on your bike? Do you know what the length of it is (eyelet to eyelet)?

I still need to take mine out and measure it. I have a TTX shock, and the previous owner told me he setup his bike with a raised rear. I definitely felt the shakiness of the bike under hard acceleration, but not enough to cause a tank slapper or to scare me that it would.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

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post #57 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
Interesting to see this for sure. This is pretty much exactly opposite of what I've heard from others.

Do you have a stock shock on your bike? Do you know what the length of it is (eyelet to eyelet)?

I still need to take mine out and measure it. I have a TTX shock, and the previous owner told me he setup his bike with a raised rear. I definitely felt the shakiness of the bike under hard acceleration, but not enough to cause a tank slapper or to scare me that it would.
I'm running a penske in the rear, eyelet to eyelet is exactly the same as stock. I am currently running without the shim however, so I'm slightly under the factory height (did this because the rear Pirelli 180/60's are very tall). I didn't mind the head shake too bad, ran with it like that for years, but after getting dumped after a bad tank slapper, I lowered it. Now it never shakes its head. You might be able to raise it some and have no head shake, and have a good feeling with the bike, like I said, there are many variables, not everyone's riding style/body position/weight distribution/tires/damping is the same, so raising the rear might work for you. Its OK to experiment, I'm just here to share my experience/observations and maybe give people some kind of starting point. Keep in mind this is for the 09-12 zx6r, other years may differ in geometry, although I think the 13+ 636 is very similiar (I think they revised the steering head angle, but don't quote me on that). Your best bet is to talk to a race suspension guy that is familiar with setting up the zx6r's, especially for the fast guys (AMA/MotoAmerica) and pick his brain, a lot of times they won't be willing to share any info, unless you are paying for a setup...

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post #58 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicnofadz View Post
I'm running a penske in the rear, eyelet to eyelet is exactly the same as stock. I am currently running without the shim however, so I'm slightly under the factory height (did this because the rear Pirelli 180/60's are very tall). I didn't mind the head shake too bad, ran with it like that for years, but after getting dumped after a bad tank slapper, I lowered it. Now it never shakes its head. You might be able to raise it some and have no head shake, and have a good feeling with the bike, like I said, there are many variables, not everyone's riding style/body position/weight distribution/tires/damping is the same, so raising the rear might work for you. Its OK to experiment, I'm just here to share my experience/observations and maybe give people some kind of starting point. Keep in mind this is for the 09-12 zx6r, other years may differ in geometry, although I think the 13+ 636 is very similiar (I think they revised the steering head angle, but don't quote me on that). Your best bet is to talk to a race suspension guy that is familiar with setting up the zx6r's, especially for the fast guys (AMA/MotoAmerica) and pick his brain, a lot of times they won't be willing to share any info, unless you are paying for a setup...
Experimenting is pretty much what I plan to do. Just wanted to get some starting points and see what others have done. And yes, I have an '09. For now I just need to get more laps on it since I just got it. I only put about 20 laps on it so far out of which the last few I had some problems with the clutch slipping so I was going slow.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

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post #59 of 152 Old 04-21-2016, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicnofadz View Post
I've been racing the 09-12 zx6r for 4-5 years now in CCS and have experimented with geometry (taking input from other racers and race mechanics). I've noticed (at least for my style of riding) this bike likes A LOT of trail so you have to raise the front quite a bit. I am running the 30 MM ohlins front cartridges on mine (which when installed increases the front fork length by 10-11 MM) and in addition to this I drop the forks another 5 MM so they are flush with the top triple, so we are talking about a approximate 15mm increase in front ride height, and a stock rear ride height (I actually just removed my factory shim to lower the rear ride height by 2-3 MM at the shock, because I switched to Pirelli from Michelin). I've found that if you increase the rear ride height, it makes the bike transition faster, but I get too much head shake/tank slapping throttling out of the corners, so I keep the rear low. Also with the rear raised, I feel like I get way more mid corner chatter, and front slides. I became quite good at saving front end slides, until I lowered my rear back down to stock height (increasing trail) and I feel this gave the bike much needed front end grip. With the stock rear ride height I've also found that you can trail brake much much harder without lifting/sliding the rear. YMMV. Keep in mind riding styles vary greatly so one person's setup may not work for another, also your body position and body size/weight play huge roles in this as well.
This is spot on. You CAN raise the rear, as long as you also raise the front the same amount once you find that happy place for geometry to increase ride height. This is what I had to do which is why my rear ride height is up a little bit from stock, but my front end is up a ton more than stock. It is all relative.
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post #60 of 152 Old 04-29-2016, 05:32 PM
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Just to document for others to find in a "geometry" search:

'12 zx6r track bike: stock rear shock and Racetech Goldvalve kit in the forks (adds 15mm to stock length); forks also lowered so "shoulder" of fork tube is level with the upper triple clamp (which means in total I added 20 mm to the stock fork length). Running Dunlop Q3s: 120/70 ZR17 front and 180/55 ZR17 rear. The "magic" happened when I raised the rear with a 6 mm shim between the frame and the top shock clevis (keeping the OEM spacer in place). It still has more trail than stock, but with the rear ride height raised the bike flicks side to side much easier. I highly recommend this setup....
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