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Track suspension/geometry set up

38K views 163 replies 30 participants last post by  5hift 
#1 ·
I was speaking with a shop about chain length, rear tire position and stuff.

He started getting into suspension and geometry. Now it has me thinking. He was referencing about gsxr600 and r6 has their little secrets of geometry set up. But does not know zx6r...

So I wondering for you guys who does track days, what's your set up?

I remember watching a video this rider with a 07 zx6r, i noticed his forks are about 5mm higher than the top triple... I've always wonder what benefits do you get from this...
 
#2 ·
I dont know much, but here is what I do know:

I had my forks rebuilt last season with Penske internals and sprung for my weight. My suspension tech told me to install them at OEM height which is about 10mm past the top triple. Forgot the exact measurement, but I have it written down somewhere. Forks require literally no adjustment after installation.

I also had a Penske double clicker refreshed and sprung for my weight and my suspension tech had me adjust it to the same length as the OEM unit. His default settings were close, but rebound had to be softened a bit.

Bike feels amazing and is leaps and bounds better than the OEM setup. Feels planted and confident in turns and have much better feel in the front and back. I am new to track time, but the few days I had on the new setup provided me with so much more confidence. I cant wait to get out there this year!
 
#3 ·
Yes, take a look at this http://zx6r.com/racing/34475-track-tyres-7.html
And here TONY FOALE DESIGNS - Home page

Then there are the Bradley books
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Racing-Moto...8&qid=1389714650&sr=1-1&keywords=john+bradley

Volume2 is more about materials and construction methods....


Then there is
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-...389714710&sr=1-1&keywords=motorcycle+dynamics

There is more including chain length sweet spot and ride height - but then I would have to kill ya!!! because I have read them and spent years understanding this stuff
 
#4 ·
There is a lot more than just a suspension set-up. Depending on how far you want to take it but usually ajustments are needed for different tracks. I would highly recommend reading suspension books (as oldboy stated above) to gain basic knowledge on how you suspension works, you'd be suprised how much it will help you. Good luck man!
 
#6 ·
So I wondering for you guys who does track days, what's your set up?

I remember watching a video this rider with a 07 zx6r, i noticed his forks are about 5mm higher than the top triple... I've always wonder what benefits do you get from this...
Suspension rule 1: Take notes. Note down what settings are where first.
Rule 2: Make only ONE adjustment at a time. Compression OR rebound, front OR rear. Don't change both, you won't know what made the difference.
Rule 3: Make SMALL changes. 1 click or turn at a time.
Rule 4: See rule 1

Now that the first order of business is out of the way.....

IMHO, 5mm is too much for me. I prefer 0mm myself. That is measuring from the tube to the top of the triple (not counting the caps). Rear ride height for me is +3mm static (without me on the bike). This set up helps the bike turn more quickly but is at the expense of a slightly less stable exit. That is where a good steering damper comes in as the front starts to loft.
Chain length will increase or decrease your wheelbase. Shorter chain= shorter wheelbase. As long as your adjuster will allow it. Personally, I like my wheelbase to remain about OEM specs but that varies as I change my sprockets. I'm not at a level where 3-4mm in wheelbase will make a huge difference. I still have braking and left-right transitions to work on.
If you set your mike up EXACTLY like mine (assuming you have an 07-08) then you might love it. You might not. There is no "perfect" set up because no two riders are the same weight and style. Further, your tires are part of your suspension and are an additional variable.
My advice would be to hook up with a suspension vendor at a track day. Usually it will cost you <$50 to work through the day. He or she can do a base line set up and then read your tires and feedback throughout the day and make tweaks here and there. Then refer to rule 1 :bigsmile:
 
#8 ·
My 03.....I had 2 5mm spacers (10mm) to increase ride height in the rear and ran the front forks flush with the triples.....this was with Ohlins 20mm in 07 forks and an Ohlins triple rear shock.
My 13 I have a GP 25mm Cart kit in OEM forks and a Ohlins triple rear...run 7mm spacers in the rear and 3mm showing above the triples not counting the GP caps.

Take notes, set a baseline and go from there. Minute changes per session. Tire profiles, manufacturers, and compounds also will affect handling.
 
#10 ·
Thanks everyone. Definitely will be looking into these books.
 
#11 · (Edited)
The setup for the 09-12 zx6r chassis is not the same for the other years (might be similar to the 13+). When using the stock triples, in order to have a good feeling with the front (so it doesn't chatter, tuck) and to increase trail, you need to raise the front ride height, and leave the rear ride height alone (do not shim the rear). This will allow you to trail brake hard into the turn and maintain good stability mid corner. Raising the rear will shift too much weight on the front, decrease trail, cause tank slappers and head shake, and the front will lose traction. This is only from my experience, and talking to other race mechanics...YMMV.
 
#12 ·
This is a 2.5 year old thread and this info has been covered in other posts since that time, but your information is correct. Some even run fork extenders to raise the front past flush...
 
#15 ·
Do you have any links by chance? I've been meaning to ask about this, since I know nothing about ZX6R geometry and suspension setup. I figured I should do a solid day on the bike first and see how it feels as is now, but doesn't hurt to get a head start on it.
 
#13 ·
Damn a two-and-a-half-year-old thread. It was just getting good. I must be bored. One thing I don't really agree with is making small changes to hydraulic settings. Sometimes you can't even feel the change you made. Make a 2-3 click change and then you can feel it. Whether better or worse. If you write the change down you can always go back to the original in small increments.
 
#14 ·
One of the most important things with suspension set up and tuning is being able to feel what the bike is doing and relaying the information to the tuner. If you don't give good information to the tuner it's hard for them to make good changes to the bike. This is why learning how to do it yourself is the best thing you can do. Reading tires will give you a lot of information on Geometry setup.
 
#16 ·
Too lazy to look but I am sure it is covered somewhere in my build thread...if you can't find it let me know and I will do some digging.
 
#21 ·
Here is what I got so far. Raise the front end or raise the back end or drop the front end or drop the rear end. Pay someone to do your suspension or do it yourself but either way make sure you record values and changes. In the end, it will be what works best for you and there is no one way to do it. Did I miss anything?
 
#34 · (Edited)
You could put your bike on Eric's geometry machine and he can measure everything for you and likely has access to numbers on the setups of some very fast guys. I put my new ZX10 on his machine and confirmed what he already new, that the bike had too much trail from the factory. I put 9mm of shims above the shock which brought the rear up 18mm and got all the numbers closer to what a couple of the really fast guys are running. The nice thing about putting the bike on the machine is you can make the change in the computer without actually changing the bike to see how it's going to effect all the other geometry numbers. You can also see how running a particular set of tires over another set will effect geometry.

Here were the stock numbers the day we measured the bike on the way home from picking it up from the dealer:





Eric's shop if interested:

Motorcycle Suspension & Chassis Services
https://www.facebook.com/VelocityCalibrations/

On my '08 600s I believe I have about 10mm of washers (possibly much less than that, I don't remember what I ended up with) above the shocks which seemed to make them turn in really well.
 
#37 ·
That's a lot of good info Todd and Slo! Thanks a bunch! I have to go to work now, but I'll be looking at that in more details later tonight.

Just to be clear though...I think I'm starting to understand why I'm confused about the rear height. On a STOCK ZX6R, the only way to change height is to shim the shock, using spacers/washers?? But if I have an Ohlins TTX shock, don't they have ride height adjustability built into them (on the bottom, where it connects to the clevis)?


Slo, I like your analogy about geometry and asking to sleep with their wife! LOL....technically I asked Marr (his wife) because it's her bike now. She's got an '09 that Jason used to race before he got the new gen 636. I figured there would be no harm in sharing info since it's for a 7-year old bike that he doesn't even race anymore, and I don't think she races quite that competitively anyway (in other words, she's not going for CCS or ASRA championships), so I don't see why it would be threatening to share info to a slow amateur :O
 
#38 ·
Hah, I was posting while TDH posted his info as well. VERY interesting to see the differences between the ZX10 and the ZX6. Wheelbase and trail in particular are noteworthy. I expected a longer wheelbase but less trail to counter. It seems to me that it must be difficult steering, at least compared to our 600s.

Also interesting that our ride heights are only 2.5mm different, and I have lowered mine since those original numbers and I would be willing to bet it is right about where yours is set.
 
#40 ·
I will be interested to hear how you like it. I am just over 22mm up in the back from where it came from the factory, but my front is much taller than that.
 
#41 ·
Todd, I might've asked you this at Hallett but I forgot...any idea how much a machine like that cost, like the one used at Velocity Calibrations? I would totally do that, but it's hard for me to justify the 6-7 hour drive just for that :/
 
#43 ·
He lists a price on this page with some explanation ($300):

Motorcycle Geometry

To be honest, I think just spending the day talking geometry with Eric while he is setting up and measuring your bike is worth that. I'll see him at the track tomorrow if you want any more info, Actually, if you're interested I could get him to chime in on this thread. I learned more just talking geometry during all the measurements than I ever knew. Of course I already forgot most of it. :) He's very good at drawing things out on his whiteboard and helping you understand what's going on and how changing a certain aspect of your geometry will change how the bike behaves. Does the bike want to run wide? Does it push into the corner? etc, etc.
 
#44 ·
No, it's just to get measurements on all aspects of your geometry and know if you're off in one direction or another and he can make hypothetical changes in the computer to see how that will effect all of the other measurements. It'll also tell you if your frame is bent, etc. He's even got a frame straightening machine. Actually my brand new ZX10 showed it had a bent frame, but he told me before even hooking the machine up it was going to do that. I guess because his software didn't yet have the update for the 2016 ZX10R.
 
#45 ·
Main reason I asked about the machine cost is because I was wondering if it may be worth investing in it and do the same thing for people locally for a fee of course. That way maybe in a few years it would pay for itself, and then it would be good to have for any future bike.

I looked it up and didn't see a price on the manufacturer's website (made in Germany). There just aren't many places that have something like that and I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't feel like driving so far away for a $300 service, despite how much I would learn.
 
#48 ·
Don't quote me on this but I think I recall him saying he paid around $25k for it used.
Holy shit!!! :eek:

Yeah...never mind then lol....I was thinking it might be worth it if it's like under $3k or so. But $25k is insane, especially used.

Then again, now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense. I don't even know why I imagined it being much cheaper than that when you figure out all the sensors and parts that go into it plus the software!
 
#49 ·
Eric also just got selected to be the K-Tech rep at all the MotoAmerica rounds. I'll see him at the track tomorrow and ask what he's got in the machine. The travel expenses to work with Lenny probably cost as much as the machine. :) Also, and I may be wrong on this, but I think he and Lenny are the only two in the US with these machines. I'll try to verify that tomorrow as well.
 
#50 ·
On the manufacturer's website they had listed 5 locations, and Velocity Calibrations wasn't one of them...maybe because he got it used and didn't register or something??

Lenny was on there, as was RaceTech, and a few other places I never heard of.
 
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