The quick flick - ZX6R Forum
 8Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
Team Green
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 116

I Ride: 09 ZX6R
The quick flick

I've been thinking about this for the last couple track days that I have ridden. I have been reading what @PainfullySlo has been writing over the past little while and it got me to thinking about it again now.

Keith Code is a very big proponent of the quick flick and I don't understand the benefit. If I remember correctly, it's been a while since the last time I watched Twist of the Wrist 2, he teaches to complete braking prior to the tip in and tip in quickly and late. It may be that a person's skill level in race craft and knowledge of the track has to be higher than where I am currently to make use of this to the fullest. My experience is that I am a lot smoother and safer if I am able to turn in quickly but not what would be considered to be a "flick". Then I still have some safety in minor trail braking, I don't upset the suspension as bad, and I generally am able to roll back on the power before the apex. That being said, I prefer take a later turn in than most and set the turn for a later apex but that allows me to get on the throttle quite a bit sooner than most in the I group that I have ridden in. I generally make my passes coming out of turns even on the liter bikes

I also see the MotoGP guys turning in smoothly not the quick flick that KC teaches. Maybe I'm missing something, I'm all ears.
harleystyles is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 03:36 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,720

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Well it makes sense that the quicker you turn the bike over from upright to full lean, the less time you lose, and hence faster lap times. Judging when to do that is important though and not as easy. That's something I've always struggled with, and I've developed more of a gradual tipping style. I turn in pretty early but it's very gradual. So not the typical mistake that most beginners make when they turn in too soon and then they have to stand the bike up mid turn a bit and then tip it over again. I just use the earlier turn-in points to help shave off more speed while trail-braking. Seems to work pretty well, although I know the faster guys take less time to go from full upright to full lean. Still need to work on that. You need to have lots of confidence in your front end usually.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle
sbk1198 is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 04:13 PM
Track Star
 
Petrolsexual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 464

I Ride: 2009 ZX6R
It seems to me Keith Code teaches more "do these things and you won't put yourself into a bad spot" rather than "this is how to get around a track as absolutely fast as possible". That said, there is a time and place for everything. If you are going through a series of direction changes and not doing much speeding up or slowing down there is no reason not to put her from one side to the other as fast as you can. If you are trail braking now you have a reason to take a little more time. One thing I've been noticing is really fast guys can trail brake hard and still slam it on its side pretty quickly. But, obviously that takes a lot of practice. I feel like, and this probably isn't very useful, every corner is different and will need a little different approach. In a heavy braking zone where you are trailing later and harder into the corner you might have to sacrifice tip in rate, while in a situation with less to no trail braking and you can increase the tip in rate. With MotoGP there are a lot of big straights and on a 270hp bike they have a lot of speed to scrub off for the corners. All that heavy braking and trail braking into the corners probably plays into what you are seeing. Even still they are getting those bikes turned pretty quick, or at least as quickly as they can for how much grip the front has got while riding the brake into the turn.
sbk1198 likes this.
Petrolsexual is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 05:33 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,720

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
^Agreed. Turn-in point is also a function of speed (approach speed and corner entry speed). At my home track watching some of the fast guys go into T1, which is at the end of a short straight (105-110 mph typical speed), they turn-in at the #1 board typically. Watching someone like Jake Holden go through there though was kind of an eye opener. His knee was pretty much on the ground by the time we went past the #1 board. He was going so much faster into the turn, that he would start tipping the bike over probably 20-30 yards sooner and still able to throw it on the side quickly.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle
sbk1198 is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
Team Green
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 116

I Ride: 09 ZX6R
Both of you seem to be saying the same thing that I'm feeling. I also start the turn gradually, but not start the turn and stand back up. And there are merits to just getting the thing leaned over quick as you can. There are a couple tight spots that I can think of that are almost neutral throttle back to back.
harleystyles is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 07:30 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,720

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Quote:
Originally Posted by harleystyles View Post
Both of you seem to be saying the same thing that I'm feeling. I also start the turn gradually, but not start the turn and stand back up. And there are merits to just getting the thing leaned over quick as you can. There are a couple tight spots that I can think of that are almost neutral throttle back to back.
I've been told that one of the main differences that separates the pros from the rest of us amateurs is they have a much better feeling for how to properly load the front tire. To us, when you look at a really fast guy, you simply notice they brake later, harder and tip in faster. Then you try to do that, you crash, and you wonder why the bike held up for him but not for you. It's all in that front end. Most of us are either too afraid to push it more not knowing where the limit is, or we do it and crash because we don't have a good feel for how to properly load the front tire. Most of the time difference in a lap between a pro and a regular fast-ish guy comes from brake zones and corner entry. Which happens to be the scary part too. Driving out of turns is not that hard. Most of us are relatively decent at that.
PainfullySlo likes this.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle
sbk1198 is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 08:07 PM
ZX6r.com Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Indy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Indianapolis, In
Posts: 968
Garage
harleystyles many good points, none of which I would try to disagree with.

We learn to crawl before walking, walk before running.

" To us, when you look at a really fast guy, you simply notice they brake later, harder and tip in faster. Then you try to do that, you crash, and you wonder why the bike held up for him but not for you. It's all in that front end. Most of us are either too afraid to push it more not knowing where the limit is, or we do it and crash because we don't have a good feel for how to properly load the front tire."

Some never get it,, most of us have to SLOWLY work up to the line.
The brave cross it and most times didn't spend enough time at the line to learn where it was.
IMO, for most of us slowly getting everything else correct then creeping up to the line of tire limits is the best way to learn the signs of your tire saying this is it. No more.

Last track day, the exercise was either on gas or ON brakes was interesting. No coasting.

For this mortal, time and laps loads of laps. Trying to unlearn bad habits and get muscle memory for the good.
Indy is online now  
post #8 of 20 Old 11-10-2016, 08:52 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,720

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post
harleystyles many good points, none of which I would try to disagree with.

We learn to crawl before walking, walk before running.

" To us, when you look at a really fast guy, you simply notice they brake later, harder and tip in faster. Then you try to do that, you crash, and you wonder why the bike held up for him but not for you. It's all in that front end. Most of us are either too afraid to push it more not knowing where the limit is, or we do it and crash because we don't have a good feel for how to properly load the front tire."

Some never get it,, most of us have to SLOWLY work up to the line.
The brave cross it and most times didn't spend enough time at the line to learn where it was.
IMO, for most of us slowly getting everything else correct then creeping up to the line of tire limits is the best way to learn the signs of your tire saying this is it. No more.

Last track day, the exercise was either on gas or ON brakes was interesting. No coasting.

For this mortal, time and laps loads of laps. Trying to unlearn bad habits and get muscle memory for the good.
For sure. Not to mention most of us know we won't be racing in MotoGP or WSBK, ever. We have full-time jobs that we need to get back to and when we crash, we fix our own shit or pay for it out of pocket. So "slow but sure" is much better than throwing it down the track every other weekend

A couple of years ago I got the opportunity to sit down and talk to Melissa Paris for about an hour. At that time I was just starting to get into racing. I was an A-group track day guy, but barely any racing experience, and obviously a bit slower than I am now. She had just told me her story of how she started, which btw isn't how some might think...like being born into a family of bikers and got her first bike at age 5 and started racing at age 10...no, none of that Rossi/Lorenzo/Marquez shit. She started around age 20-ish or upper teens, riding bikes around the curvy california roads, then got into doing some track days, she happened to be really good, one thing led to another, and within a couple of years she was club-racing, then shortly after went pro. I mentioned to her that I'm amazed on how she, her husband Josh Hayes, and other pros in AMA (this was just before MotoAmerica) were so fast, and how they got there so quick, while I'm sitting here trying my best and not even close. To that she said..."yeah but I bet I've thrown down a lot more bikes and broken a lot more bones than you have "....touche Melissa, touche!

Regarding your comment about either on the gas or on the brakes....what do you mean that was "last track day's exercise"?? Every time you're on track it should be like that! lol...I'm sure some track might have some areas where some coasting can't really be avoided, but that's not very common. At my home track, I do no coasting, ever! Either on the gas or I'm on the brakes. Of course that doesn't mean "full gas" or "full brakes". That's impossible.
RJ2112 likes this.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle
sbk1198 is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 04:23 AM
Post Master General
 
RJ2112's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bowling Green, VA
Posts: 7,345

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
^^^To that she said..."yeah but I bet I've thrown down a lot more bikes and broken a lot more bones than you have "....touche Melissa, touche!

Great story!

"There's this adage that we have 2 ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we talk. Unfortunately with the Internet people have taken this old adage and turned it around. They have two eyes and 10 fingers so they think they need to post 5 times as much as they read. And since they have 10 fingers and one brain, they only have to think 10% of the time! "
RJ2112 is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 05:55 AM
World Superbike Racer
 
Off Camber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NOVA
Posts: 1,532
If you take the CSS class, they don't say "Quick Flick" anymore, they say "Quick Turn". Dylan Code runs the school now for the most part. They changed the terminology I believe because they didn't want to imply abruptness. They want you to turn as quick as possible while being smooth. You also want you to lightly trail brake going into the turn, being smooth in the transition of braking and turning.

I think they found so many students turned so slowly they went wide during later apex turns.

Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough.
Theodore Roosevelt
Off Camber is online now  
post #11 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 01:43 PM
ZX6r.com Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Indy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Indianapolis, In
Posts: 968
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post

Regarding your comment about either on the gas or on the brakes....what do you mean that was "last track day's exercise"?? Every time you're on track it should be like that! lol...I'm sure some track might have some areas where some coasting can't really be avoided, but that's not very common. At my home track, I do no coasting, ever! Either on the gas or I'm on the brakes. Of course that doesn't mean "full gas" or "full brakes". That's impossible.
So I'll admit to coasting,, late in the straight or between chicanes.

I would come off gas, brake get to entree speed then set body position. One thing at a time to keep from upsetting the bike and ME (lol)
So the coast many do is during the throttle blip many or at least I wasn't on the brake.
I would be braking or downshifting and blipping the throttle.
It was suggested to brake and blip at the same time.
That in of it self was interesting as my brakes are real sensitive and during the blip would get fork dive.
Talked with prior owner and asked how he dealt with that. (he's a A rider and now in WERA) Simple no blip just brake hard and let the slipper clutch deal with it.
SO at my age, and with many years of bad habit's I try to work on one thing at a time.
May never make it to the A group, and don't care. I'm having a blast and it's just a letter for me. Right now it's the most fun I can have with my cloths on.
For me, i don't use a timer and don't plan on using one. I know when I'm doing good and when I'm sliding back into bad habit's.
Indy is online now  
post #12 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 02:20 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,720

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post
So I'll admit to coasting,, late in the straight or between chicanes.

I would come off gas, brake get to entree speed then set body position. One thing at a time to keep from upsetting the bike and ME (lol)
So the coast many do is during the throttle blip many or at least I wasn't on the brake.
I would be braking or downshifting and blipping the throttle.
It was suggested to brake and blip at the same time.
That in of it self was interesting as my brakes are real sensitive and during the blip would get fork dive.
Talked with prior owner and asked how he dealt with that. (he's a A rider and now in WERA) Simple no blip just brake hard and let the slipper clutch deal with it.
SO at my age, and with many years of bad habit's I try to work on one thing at a time.
May never make it to the A group, and don't care. I'm having a blast and it's just a letter for me. Right now it's the most fun I can have with my cloths on.
For me, i don't use a timer and don't plan on using one. I know when I'm doing good and when I'm sliding back into bad habit's.
I agree with the guy you talked to. I've never been able to get good at blipping and gave up on it very quickly. With slipper clutches, it's piece of cake, you never need to blip, but even without a slipper I still don't blip and I learned to just be smooth with the clutch to not upset the chassis and break the rear tire loose. I had a big 1200cc v-twin (1198) without a slipper so I got really good at doing that because that bike was a beast. Now everything else seems easy, although my zx6r has an STM slipper that's smooth as butter!

Getting to be smooth with the clutch is important because it can really help in some turns where you have to downshift while you're at lean. I haven't encountered many turns like that though, maybe a couple out of all the tracks I've been to.

I agree that you should downshift and brake at the same time. The good way, and fast way, to do it when coming at the end of a straight into a turn is this:

1. Let off the throttle, and as you do that, also get in position. Move your butt off the seat which ever way the turn goes, thigh up against the tank, and all that good stuff.
2. Brake
3. Assuming you slow down by a lot and have do downshift, do your downshift very shortly after you get on the brakes. Don't let the revs drop too much. Get your shifts done as quick as possible.
4. As you're approaching the turn start easing off the brakes as you're turning in (trail-braking). Sometimes, depending on how much time and space you have available and how many times you have to downshift, you may still need to be slipping the clutch as you're leaning into the turn. I've had times when I'm only fully letting off the clutch around the middle of the turn, right before getting on the gas.
5. Trail-brake as long as needed and once your bike is pointed the right way, start getting on the gas. No coasting.
Indy likes this.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle
sbk1198 is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 05:22 PM
ZX6r.com Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Indy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Indianapolis, In
Posts: 968
Garage
I'll give it a try... Thanks..

Copied it to wordpad since it will be February if I make it to Jenning's otherwise it will be spring..

JUST CAN'T WAIT TO TRY IT,, haven't been on the track in 6 weeks,, seems like month's.
Indy is online now  
post #14 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 05:29 PM
MotoGP Champion
 
sbk1198's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,720

I Ride: '09 ZX6R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post
I'll give it a try... Thanks..

Copied it to wordpad since it will be February if I make it to Jenning's otherwise it will be spring..

JUST CAN'T WAIT TO TRY IT,, haven't been on the track in 6 weeks,, seems like month's.
Haha I feel your pain! 6-7 weeks for me too. Won't be until March or April depending if/when I go to COTA. Jennings would be a pretty long way for you! But I hear it's a pretty fun track.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
2015 R3 (project bike and future race bike)

Sponsors: Vortex Racing, MSM, MTR Cycle
sbk1198 is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 11-11-2016, 07:21 PM
ZX6r.com Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Indy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Indianapolis, In
Posts: 968
Garage
A day travel each direction. Just don't like cold days.

Already did one, last track day, was 41 in the morning and made it to 60.

Found out that Cup tires and road snake's suck when cold, along with I hate my rear ending sliding out..

So need to check out what the temps tend to be in February.
Indy is online now  
Reply

  ZX6R Forum > ZX6R Forum > Racing

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Attack Racing Rear Quick Change Complete Setup. abhijitz Classifieds 9 10-26-2016 05:05 PM
Help me improve, quick flick, a fast chicane/ S curve harleystyles Racing 8 05-04-2016 08:20 PM
2013 ZX-6R, Quick Shifter advice? MrRumble Mechanical and Technical 5 08-31-2015 08:21 PM
2013 zx6r Pcv quick shifter threads lh/rh DaddyJama Racing 9 07-01-2014 04:38 PM
05-06 Annitori Quick Shifter MonkeyWrench Classifieds 4 06-18-2014 10:08 AM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome