Using the rear brake...the pro way! - ZX6R Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 11-25-2016, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Using the rear brake...the pro way!

Well I'll be damned! I just learned something new from this video. Apparently you CAN set up a bike such that you can be on the rear brake while dragging a knee without scraping anything on the ground! Wonder what the height is on Redding's bike from the ground to the foot peg and also from the ground to the brake pedal end? I always felt like if the peg is not under the ball of my foot, I'll be scraping my toes (cuz it happened in the past).

https://www.facebook.com/PramacRacin...4872096403304/

This one doesn't want to imbed cuz it's from facebook, but whatever...

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post #2 of 18 Old 11-25-2016, 05:57 PM
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I watched this a lil bit ago. Impressive. I'm at that early stage with very little talent where I'm still afraid to touch my rear brake.

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post #3 of 18 Old 11-25-2016, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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I watched this a lil bit ago. Impressive. I'm at that early stage with very little talent where I'm still afraid to touch my rear brake.
Yeah I just got so used to not using it that I'm afraid by introducing an extra action when going into a turn could end badly if I don't get it right.

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post #4 of 18 Old 11-25-2016, 06:06 PM
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I find it so hard to modulate. I feel like I gave very lil feeling if I am touching it a lil or if I am pushing it hard. my hand inputs I feel very comfortable with how much I am using.
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post #5 of 18 Old 11-26-2016, 05:47 AM
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The only time I use the rear brake is when the bike wants to wheelie over a rise in the road / track while on the gas......or when coming to a complete stop. Of course my skill level is light years behind that of pro racers.

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post #6 of 18 Old 11-26-2016, 07:27 PM
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post #7 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
Yeah I just got so used to not using it that I'm afraid by introducing an extra action when going into a turn could end badly if I don't get it right.



Dissect the video:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...reply.php&_rdr

I have to admit that I'm a big fan of using the rear brake, not so much to decelerate, though there is definitely a component of that, but rather for fine tuning one's line through corner or a series of corners.

At 0:42 you see Scott is braking using the ball of his foot to apply the brake - this is no half ass job. But notice the application is done whilst the bike is basically upright... that's not to say that he doesn't separate the acts. He integrates the braking by keeping the brake applied then really tipping it in. He does not unsettle the festivities by just letting letting off... This is deftly done. He slides the foot to the 'outside' of the peg. What this technique accomplishes is as the foot slides right there is increasingly less pressure exerted because there are simply less of the foot musculature to press downward.

Again, at 1:07, Redding is very slightly leant over, then again applies the rear brake. If one examines the two sections, what can be realized is this is a technique to significantly tighten Redding's line. The beautiful upshot is it does not disturb the frontend stability. He could, if he wanted to, is use slightly more/less lean. By doing so, the rider can go into the corner faster, then use the rear brake to modulate (settle) the rider/bike on the desired line.

At ≈ 2:10 Redding is leant to his left with the rear brake applied - note the angled of his toes. He proceeded to a brief upright. Goes to leaning the bike to the right again and then sticks his foot out, ala Rossi. Then back onto the right side and uses the rear brake, note: by 2:45 he's 'feathering' off the brake by rolling the ball of his foot out and sort of rolloing to the end of the peg; he is still applying pressure, but by virtue of being on the end of the peg he is merely 'dragging' the rear by a slight degree.

It becomes clear in short order that regardless of left or right, the rear brake is primarily being applied not for a critical degree of stopping - the front is engaged for that. Rather the rear brake is being used primarily as a lean modifier. What we cannot see because we are not shown a camera shot, is I'll bet he uses his right index and/or middle finger(s) to the opposite effect at the front brake, lightly modulating the brake lever to keep the front planted through bumpy sections (cornrer entries, dbl off cambre turns). Where again, it's less or a deceleration tool and more of a suspension fine tuning tool as it and the throttle are being used simultaneously.

It does in fact act as a banking fine tuner. Yes, it contributes to deceleration, but when we listen to the engine RPMs he is clearly applying simultaneously rear brake and throttle. So there is no abrupt on/off of the rear brake and/or throttle. Scott is using both to smooth out transitions, nowhere is it abrupt or jerky - he does not stab the peddle, rather he rolls on to it whist his heel is firmly on the foot peg, and eases onto the brake peddle with the front of the foot (ball).

And that is the key to its application! The bottom of his right foot is sliding along the foot peg and rear peddle - neither heel nor ball of foot are intractably anchored, he really is dancing on the foot controls, and like a good dancer, it's done quickly, but very smoothly. Note: the complete lack of panic. There are no "... Oh shit... ," banging going on of any of the foot or hand controls - it's smooth all the time.
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post #8 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 05:04 AM
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This is an exceptional piece of writing! A must read for any rider who wants to rider faster through corners by application of the rear brake. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true.

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post #9 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 06:09 AM
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Thanks for the props, ZedEx =)

Now that I have had a chance to actually look at the video...

Those guys are at a level so far beyond not only my skills, but the skills that I have witnessed it is mind boggling. I would have to say that in addition to what I wrote earlier that it would seem there are times where he uses the rear brake to settle the bike before hard braking which would make sense (elongating the wheelbase makes it harder to loft the rear under maximum front braking). It just wasn't something that I had thought about. I feel it is important to note that he does use the rear brake before maximum braking but then relieves pressure on the rear brake before applying maximum front braking pressure. This is most definitely a timing thing. It would be critical that he is off the rear brake by the time the rear tire starts to lose grip as the risk of locking up the rear wheel would be too great.

If you pay attention to when Scott is using the rear mid-corner it is actually at a time when there is a lot less risk of anything bad happening with the rear. Believe it or not it is safer to use the rear mid-corner (for line adjustment and suspension/geometry control) than it is on corner entry (for slowing down).

While cornering, the vast majority of load is on the front tire. If you want proof watch any professional race where someone crashed on corner entry and is almost always by losing the front end. In fact the limit of how well you can take a corner is directly determined by your front tire grip. What this means is that your rear tire is largely unloaded at this time and has TONS of grip available to do other stuff with...stuff like using the rear brake which leads back to that other post that I wrote =).
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Last edited by PainfullySlo; 11-27-2016 at 06:11 AM.
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post #10 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Another thing that surprised me when I saw the video, which Zed mentioned, is that he's still on the rear brake as he's getting back on the gas. I would think that's a bit counter-intuitive because essentially you're increasing the drag so there is less power being applied to the wheel, and hence less acceleration at first. But I'm guessing because he's riding a 260 hp bike, perhaps he's doing that to get a smoother driver out of the turns and prevent any chance of the rear stepping out, as well as maybe not destroying the tire as quick. I'm guessing the less power you have, the less beneficial it is to do that.

All of this talk makes me want to try using the rear brake next time on the track! lol...unfortunately I still have a good 3-4 months until I'll be back out

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post #11 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 11:42 AM
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Im surprised I haven't wrecked from my misuse of the rear brake.
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post #12 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
Another thing that surprised me when I saw the video, which Zed mentioned, is that he's still on the rear brake as he's getting back on the gas. I would think that's a bit counter-intuitive because essentially you're increasing the drag so there is less power being applied to the wheel, and hence less acceleration at first. But I'm guessing because he's riding a 260 hp bike, perhaps he's doing that to get a smoother driver out of the turns and prevent any chance of the rear stepping out, as well as maybe not destroying the tire as quick. I'm guessing the less power you have, the less beneficial it is to do that.

All of this talk makes me want to try using the rear brake next time on the track! lol...unfortunately I still have a good 3-4 months until I'll be back out

In the 'old days' when we had GSX-R 1100, CBR 900RR (919, 929, & 954), and then early R1s, and GSX-R 1Ks had super powerful engine/weight ratios that utilized relatively simple electrical systems. None of the anti-wheel spin, anti-wheelie, ABS etc. Those tasks were governed with the right hand and right foot. That's why some of us 'old dogs' (& dirt bike riders) can be surprisingly quick is because we use the throttle and brakes in coordinated and inverse relationships, even with the impressive electrical suites.

I love going into a corner, stomp on the rear brake to slightly break traction then goose it to actually steer with the throttle (this what backing it in means). Whereby lining the front tire inline with the exit of the corner. This is not done so much with younger guys who carry corner speed, and rely on the electronics to keep calamity from occurring.

Some of the best I've seen do this are Aussies WSB champs Troy Bayliss & Troy Corser; AMA multi-champ Mat Mladin. 500 GP champs Kenny Roberts, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz and Mick Doohan; also AMA champs Scott Russell & Ben Bostrom & Nicky Hayden (esp. during his AMA days) I'd suggest one might want conduct some YouTube searches and study them.

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post #13 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedExMuse View Post
Some of the best I've seen do this are Aussies WSB champs Troy Bayliss & Troy Corser; AMA multi-champ Mat Mladin. 500 GP champs Kenny Roberts, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz and Mick Doohan; also AMA champs Scott Russell & Ben Bostrom & Nicky Hayden (esp. during his AMA days) I'd suggest one might want conduct some YouTube searches and study them.
. . . and don't forget Garry McCoy

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post #14 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ZedExMuse View Post
In the 'old days' when we had GSX-R 1100, CBR 900RR (919, 929, & 954), and then early R1s, and GSX-R 1Ks had super powerful engine/weight ratios that utilized relatively simple electrical systems. None of the anti-wheel spin, anti-wheelie, ABS etc. Those tasks were governed with the right hand and right foot. That's why some of us 'old dogs' (& dirt bike riders) can be surprisingly quick is because we use the throttle and brakes in coordinated and inverse relationships, even with the impressive electrical suites.

I love going into a corner, stomp on the rear brake to slightly break traction then goose it to actually steer with the throttle (this what backing it in means). Whereby lining the front tire inline with the exit of the corner. This is not done so much with younger guys who carry corner speed, and rely on the electronics to keep calamity from occurring.

Some of the best I've seen do this are Aussies WSB champs Troy Bayliss & Troy Corser; AMA multi-champ Mat Mladin. 500 GP champs Kenny Roberts, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz and Mick Doohan; also AMA champs Scott Russell & Ben Bostrom & Nicky Hayden (esp. during his AMA days) I'd suggest one might want conduct some YouTube searches and study them.
I've always wondered about how to initiate that maneuver. The fast guys still do it these days, not just the older guys that raced in the pre-electronics era, because in some classes like superstock 600, or WSP where TC is not allowed, and Moto 2 is primarily where I see it (Sam Lowes anyone?? ), but I never figured out how they do it. I've never even accidentally done it, which obviously means I'm way too slow lol. I figured it's a matter of being hard on the brakes so there's barely any weight on the rear, but then how do you make it step out like that? Do you have to stomp on the rear brake a little bit to get it to slide and then get on the gas to control it and sort of drift into the turn?

I feel like I would high-side immediately if I tried it lol

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post #15 of 18 Old 11-27-2016, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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This is in the rain, but gets the point across

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