Check out this tire wear pattern. - ZX6R Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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Check out this tire wear pattern.

Hello all, Can anybody give me any feedback on the following wear pattern on my tires. As you can hopefully see from my pictures, my tires developed a consistent bump in the tire (an actual BUMP all the way around the tire) at approximately 1 inch in from the right side of the tire. Although I will be bringing the tire to my suspension tuner to look at, I appreciate any feedback until then. Would love to know if this is chassis or rider induced.

2013 ZX6R, Aftermarket Ohlins suspension tuned by suspension tuner and chassis geometry done as well.
Pirelli Diablo SC2 Slicks 180/60 Rear

3 Track days on them.
-2 Track days at one track but ran opposite directions on different days.
-1 Track day on another track that went Clockwise but has a good amount of left hand turns on the track because the track turns in on itself a lot.
Didn't notice anything weird with tires, in fact probably the best set of tires I've had to date but was my first time running 180/60 so I imagine lifting up the rear with the taller tire helped.
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post #2 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 12:32 PM
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That is the classic vagina bump ;-)

All that means is that you were standing the bike up to that spot before you hammered the gas, rather than gradually introducing throttle from max lean. I did that a lot in my younger days.

Pick up the throttle sooner, but less aggressively. You will be faster and your tires will thank you.
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post #3 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 01:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
That is the classic vagina bump ;-)

All that means is that you were standing the bike up to that spot before you hammered the gas, rather than gradually introducing throttle from max lean. I did that a lot in my younger days.

Pick up the throttle sooner, but less aggressively. You will be faster and your tires will thank you.
You're the second person that's told me this! I'll try to be more cognizant of it! Perhaps consider going down on a reel on the Rev2 Kit I have. Thanks!!!!

I might've taken some advice a little to much to heart. I was told about how introducing throttle before picking the bike up heightens your chance of highside. So I think I've been waiting to stand the bike up a little before introducing throttle, perhaps causing me to go harder on the throttle since I have more grip/contact patch. This possibly may explain it!! Was afraid of grip issues at our most recent trackday with it being cold! I'm new to slicks.
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Last edited by RedAndBlack; 12-19-2016 at 01:21 PM.
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post #4 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 01:24 PM
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Yeah whoever told you that must not be fast.

The earlier you can get on the gas and get to WOT means you're that much faster. Slow in, fast out - Kenny Roberts

That's how races are won
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post #5 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAndBlack View Post
You're the second person that's told me this! I'll try to be more cognizant of it! Perhaps consider going down on a reel on the Rev2 Kit I have. Thanks!!!!

I might've taken some advice a little to much to heart. I was told about how introducing throttle before picking the bike up heightens your chance of highside. So I think I've been waiting to stand the bike up a little before introducing throttle, perhaps causing me to go harder on the throttle since I have more grip/contact patch. This possibly may explain it!! Was afraid of grip issues at our most recent trackday with it being cold! I'm new to slicks.
I suppose taken out of context then yes, if you do something idiotic like using the same throttle application at max lean that you would at say, 15 degrees of lean then yes, you have a good chance of highsiding yourself. I think you know by now that everything that I teach is not only faster, but safer as well. Read on...

The key is to just crack the gas open at or even just before the apex...essentially as soon as you can, then gradually roll on your throttle until WOT. Remember "Gas on, bike up" is your manta here.

The best footage that I have seen of this is of Lorenzo. I will see if I can find it. In slow motion you can see him entering a turn and then you can see him release about 4-5 degrees of lean right as he cracks the gas on. As you roll on the throttle harder, you should simultaneously be standing the bike up further into the meat of the tire. I accomplish this by pushing down on the outside peg with my foot. Try it, it is a pretty cool sensation =)

There are many advantages to using this method:
[*] Weight transfer: This transfers some of the weight back into a more neutral stance which makes for much better handling. Up until that point you are riding the front tire which is loaded with all those braking and cornering forces. Your back tire is essentially along for the ride at this point and doing not much of anything. By loading up the rear a little you are increasing the contact patch size in preparation for hard acceleration and reducing the forces on the front tire...essentially freeing up grip.
[*] Gradual throttle application: This means you have much finer control over how much throttle you are feeding into the back tire. More time to feel what is going on and react to it. It allows you to ride right at the edge of traction much more predictably than just hammering the gas and hoping that things go your way.
[*] Earlier acceleration: This seems like a no brainer but seriously, think about it for a minute. Let's say that you can pick up the gas 1 second earlier. Even if that is just maintenance throttle (meaning you are not gaining speed) your competition who is not yet on the gas is still LOSING speed due to drag from cornering and engine braking. You will pick up 2-3 bike lengths on your competition simply because you have stopped slowing down and they haven't. Eventually you will learn to maximize that time and you will be accelerating during it and the gap increases. This is a 'fast guy' secret. Early and slow is faster than waiting and hammering and it is substantially easier on your tires...with a much larger margin for error to boot!
[*] Properly loaded tire and suspension: Because you gradually increased the load on the rear tire, it is ready to accept a lot of brutal punishment. Your geometry is stable because you are not introducing massive amounts of thrust and squat at the same time. You will have MORE grip (meaning you can accelerate harder) earlier and your will not run as wide on corner exit because your didnt just add 20mm of trail to your geometry by squatting the fuck out of the rear. Faster AND safer.

Lets do a quick timeline to illustrate:

0 seconds: Rider A and B are entering the turn at the same time, same speed 50mph
1 second: Rider A opens the gas 5%, Rider B is still off the gas. Rider A is 51mph, Rider B is 49mph. 1 bike length difference
2 seconds: Rider A increases throttle to 15%, Rider B opens gas to 25%. Rider A is 53mph, Rider B is 51mph. 3 bike length difference
3 seconds: Rider A with a properly loaded tire increases to 50% throttle. RIder B goes to 50% and starts to get wheel spin because his tire isnt loaded yet. Rider A is 56mph, Rider B is 54mph (due to wheel spin). 5 bike length difference
4 seconds Rider A goes to 100% and 60mph, Rider B goes to 100% and 58mph. 6 bike length difference. There is now a 2mph differential between the 2 riders that Rider A will carry for the entire length of the straight. There is no way for Rider B to make this up.

They both reached WOT at the same time but Rider A used less tire, held a cleaner line, was faster, and was safer in the process.
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post #6 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 04:16 PM
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Also sounds similar to Keith Code's throttle application suggestion.

I try and work to apply this, haven't had an issue until it was 41f and the tire snakes got slippery.
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post #7 of 13 Old 12-19-2016, 07:09 PM
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Holy molten rubber!
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post #8 of 13 Old 12-20-2016, 01:03 AM
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Lovely bit of art and science, Slo.

Just to chime in, some other super fast smoothies to YouTube are, multi-
I-o-M winners: Joey Dunlop, David Jefferies & John McGuiness.
WSB champs: Troy Bayliss, Troy Corser, Colin Edwards, Jr & Doug Polen.
AMA Superbike: Doug Chandler, Miguel DuHamel, Ben Spies & Matt Mladin.
BSB: Neil Hodgson, James Whitham, & Steve Hislop.
Moto GP: Jorgé Lorenzo, Casey Stoner & Nicky Hayden.

This last group are especially notable, and these are the 500GP. I separated these men from MotoGP, because the riders who were super smooth on the 2-stroke 500s were really the créme de la créme because these bikes were notoriously violent and rarely wrestled in a smooth, fluid manner, yet these champions did: Giacomo Agostini, Mike Hailwood, Mick Doohan, Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Eddie Lawson & Wayne Rainey.

In each group I exclude worthy champions like Marc Marquez, Valentino Rossi, Barry Sheene, Kevin Schwantz, Carl Fogerty, Scott Russell, Wayne Gardner, Max Biaggi, Niall Mackenzie, Rob McElnea, Shane Byrne,Tom Sykes & Jonathan Rea are all worthy, brave , intelligent champions. (Though not champions, but vastly talented and heart-stopping, I should include Randy Mamola, Nori Haga, Norifumi Abe and Marco Simoncelli.) They possess(ed) superhuman talents, and mind bending finesse. Tthey don't reside in the same 'smooth' element as the above. They are more 'rough handed', I know we should all be 'so rough' - it's a matter of degrees.

And if I had to pick the smoothest, it would come down to Hailwood, Spencer, Rainey, Chandler, and the 2-Troys, Bayliss & Corser.

I would encourage any/all who desire to elevate their riding to closely watch/study the above named riders. Some may take exception to having someone like Marquez not included. My argument is he and Haga, Simoncelli, Abe & Schwantz, etc are so unique that even those singled out cannot do what these Aliens can do. They just seem to defy physics compared to us mere mortals. Think of this in the same vein that football players, and basketball players watch/study/analyze film of their opponents/rivals.

Also of note: nearly all of these riders could/do reside on multiple lists, i.e., BSB & WSB champs; AMA & 500GP champs, etc.
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post #9 of 13 Old 12-20-2016, 05:12 AM
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Well put ZedEx!

I watch all the racing that I can, specifically to see what each rider does in a given situation to possibly expand my skillset, or at least give me ideas to try.

I will add one name to your list, 2011 WSBK champ Carlos Checa. I have never seen smooth like that. The guy looked absolutely effortless around the track, like everyone else was wrestling while he was dancing.

I only specifically mention Lorenzo because MotoGP gets the best video coverage with the highest tech cameras so it is much easier to see what I am talking about due to the quality of the footage.
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post #10 of 13 Old 12-20-2016, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
That is the classic vagina bump ;-)

All that means is that you were standing the bike up to that spot before you hammered the gas, rather than gradually introducing throttle from max lean. I did that a lot in my younger days.

Pick up the throttle sooner, but less aggressively. You will be faster and your tires will thank you.
Slo,

Can I ask for a clarification. I just want to be sure my interpretation and what I've been practicing is correct.

Majority of my braking is done while bike is straight up and down. I "trail" the front brake and hold neutral throttle to the apex. At this point braking is down and I slowly add throttle from the moment I clip the apex.

Yes? I don't want to high jack thread so just curious if this is generally correct.

Thanks
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post #11 of 13 Old 12-20-2016, 05:53 AM
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The classic vagina bump? Damn it! And I thought I was doing it right and this was normal. All my tires look like this by the time I'm done with them, especially Pirellis! LOL

I just figured it forms because you can reach full throttle when the tire is in contact with the ground in that area of the tire. You're never at full throttle when you're on the edge of it. I recall seeing a picture of a cross section of a tire that Xpyrion had actually cut with a hack saw after it was used and you could see the huge difference in the amount of rubber left in the center and the edges, compared to that 2-3 inch area starting from about 1 inch from the edge.
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post #12 of 13 Old 12-20-2016, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman636 View Post
Slo,

Can I ask for a clarification. I just want to be sure my interpretation and what I've been practicing is correct.

Majority of my braking is done while bike is straight up and down. I "trail" the front brake and hold neutral throttle to the apex. At this point braking is down and I slowly add throttle from the moment I clip the apex.

Yes? I don't want to high jack thread so just curious if this is generally correct.

Thanks
About 98% yes. Ideally the moment you are off the brakes you get back on the gas. There are a small handful of tracks in the USA that have a 'carving zone' where you basically have to just focus on allowing the bike to turn without doing anything else but they are very rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
The classic vagina bump? Damn it! And I thought I was doing it right and this was normal. All my tires look like this by the time I'm done with them, especially Pirellis! LOL

I just figured it forms because you can reach full throttle when the tire is in contact with the ground in that area of the tire. You're never at full throttle when you're on the edge of it. I recall seeing a picture of a cross section of a tire that Xpyrion had actually cut with a hack saw after it was used and you could see the huge difference in the amount of rubber left in the center and the edges, compared to that 2-3 inch area starting from about 1 inch from the edge.
It is called 'classic' for a reason. The vast majority of track riders ride just like you do. This technique is one of the things that separates the top 5 from everyone else. The biggest difference between a top expert rider and an average one happens in the first 100' after the apex of a turn.

Pirelli tires are actually very good for pointing out this flaw in riding because the softer carcass exacerbates the issue and makes it readily apparent.

In a perfect world, a rider would be able to use 100% of the tire at any lean angle and the tire wear would be equal throughout the carcass. Not even the MotoGP guys are perfect and for people like us we are much less so. It is a natural tendency to be less aggressive at the edge of the tire so what we should strive to see is a nice even wear from the edge to the center, even if we leave more rubber at the edge it should not be a 'scooped out' look like the tire shown above.
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post #13 of 13 Old 12-20-2016, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
It is called 'classic' for a reason. The vast majority of track riders ride just like you do. This technique is one of the things that separates the top 5 from everyone else. The biggest difference between a top expert rider and an average one happens in the first 100' after the apex of a turn.
Interesting...I've always been told the opposite, that it's mostly the 100' before the turn that separates the boys from the men. Most of the time I lose to the faster guys is 90% on corner entry, not exit. Some of the faster guys and instructors that have followed me have always told me I get really good drive out of turns and they can tell I'm not afraid to use the throttle, but I just brake too early and too much and lose speed in the entry of turns.

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