Closed throttle cornering... - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 33 Old 01-10-2017, 07:45 AM
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@trackdayhero the article linked above said, 'The ideal is to brake fully, then coast through the turn with brakes off, throttle off, so that all your traction is available, then go to power as you exit the turn'.

Many people here are taking umbrage to it, thinking that you should either be braking, or accellerating, or feathering the two.

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post #17 of 33 Old 01-10-2017, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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^ As above. That's how Crafar describes it in Motovudu; saying there is nothing like having a bike at full-lean, speed set, totally committed, with no throttle - basically the ideal state for the suspension when you are on the riskiest part of the corner.

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post #18 of 33 Old 01-10-2017, 09:36 AM
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^ As above. That's how Crafar describes it in Motovudu; saying there is nothing like having a bike at full-lean, speed set, totally committed, with no throttle - basically the ideal state for the suspension when you are on the riskiest part of the corner.
It's been a while since I've seen Motovudu, but if I recall, he also mentions that a corner is basically just a connection of 2 straights and in order to go fast you want to make that corner as small as possible, or in other words tip the bike in late as you can, and straighten up the bike out of the turn as early as you can. That translates to "let off the brakes late, get on the gas early, and minimize the coasting time as much as possible".

Of course a big factor is also the nature of the turn like ninjaman and tdh mentioned earlier.
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post #19 of 33 Old 01-10-2017, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Totally.

"It's all about the straights"

"Blow the b@st@rd up!"

Haha

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post #20 of 33 Old 01-10-2017, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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Ever tried riding on a track that has been used by the drifters (cars) beforehand? Fucking scary. Get back to the pits and find I've got more rubber on the tyre than when I went out.
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post #21 of 33 Old 01-10-2017, 07:36 PM
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Ever tried riding on a track that has been used by the drifters (cars) beforehand? Fucking scary. Get back to the pits and find I've got more rubber on the tyre than when I went out.
Haha, sort of, except for the local drift guys only run a small section of the track, not the whole thing. They do like 3-4 corners out of the 14 on that track. So when I've been there the following weekend you can still see all the tire marks. It just messes with me cuz all that shit on the track distracts me so I look at it instead of looking at the damn corner lol
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post #22 of 33 Old 01-12-2017, 12:08 AM
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Here's some TPS and braking data from my best lap at my local track during my last race last year. I don't have Photoshop so I can't overlay them, and the software doesn't allow me to plot both inputs at the same time unfortunately, but if someone was to overlay these, I bet you'd find that for the most part wherever the TPS is at 0%, there is some braking pressure being applied.
Red => Brake, Green => Throttle.
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post #23 of 33 Old 01-12-2017, 05:09 AM
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Red => Brake, Green => Throttle.
Nice! Awesome work! Looks like they match up pretty well (aside from some of the signal noise). Whenever the TPS goes down to 0, that's where the big spikes happen in the braking. Not a whole lot of coasting, but still a little bit in about 3 turns that I'm seeing.

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post #24 of 33 Old 01-12-2017, 02:11 PM
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I had to actually think about it for a moment because it is so second nature to me that it is not even a conscious thought. TDH basically nailed the technique that I use so yes, on MOST corners I am closed throttle (and braking like a mother-effer) and gradually pick up the throttle (as quickly as traction allows) at or just before the apex after the brakes trail off. Ideally the gap between brakes off and gas on is measured in milliseconds. Not all corners allow for this but the idea is to make time spent coasting an absolute minimum.

There are a few bizarre corners where I am still somewhat on the throttle and even a few where I am on the throttle while still braking but they are few and far between.
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post #25 of 33 Old 01-12-2017, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, totally agree. It's so hard to stop and think about what you are doing and then describe it accurately. I need to start saving for a data-logger!

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Inaudible gag, blanket which suffocates
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post #26 of 33 Old 01-12-2017, 03:26 PM
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Yeah, totally agree. It's so hard to stop and think about what you are doing and then describe it accurately. I need to start saving for a data-logger!
There's a guy on the WERA forum selling an XT GPX Pro4 for $400 (without shipping I'm sure). Pretty good deal considering they're like close to $700 brand new.
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post #27 of 33 Old 01-16-2017, 02:42 PM
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It's also sometimes hard to capture things in words, and sometimes good motorcycle riders do things they don't even realize they do which makes that even harder to capture in words. For example, I rode dirt bikes all through the late 60s and 70s and became fairly good at it. It wasn't until 1981 when I had to take the Air Force motorcycle safety course that I heard the term "counter steer". I basically told the instructor he was on drugs. But I'll be damned if this wasn't something I had been doing all along and didn't even realize it.
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post #28 of 33 Old 01-16-2017, 04:22 PM
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It's also sometimes hard to capture things in words, and sometimes good motorcycle riders do things they don't even realize they do which makes that even harder to capture in words. For example, I rode dirt bikes all through the late 60s and 70s and became fairly good at it. It wasn't until 1981 when I had to take the Air Force motorcycle safety course that I heard the term "counter steer". I basically told the instructor he was on drugs. But I'll be damned if this wasn't something I had been doing all along and didn't even realize it.
Yeah some of my students in the MSF classes look at me like I'm on drugs too when I explain counter steer, but I always tell them it'll make more sense when you're riding, and I can guarantee that you're all doing it. I ask them if they've ever ridden a bicycle. They all say "yes" typically, so I tell them that means they're already used to counter-steering more or less they just don't realize it.

I'll be honest I called bullshit on it too when I first learned how to ride. I started looking into it more online and found a great proof from Keith Code's school where they made a big angle dial indicator that they taped to the gas tank with a needle like arm that was stuck to the top triple clamp which would measure the steering angle. Sure enough when they turned one way, the indicator showed that initially the handlebars steered the opposite way, and vice versa. It wasn't much, just a few degrees, but it was very clear.

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post #29 of 33 Old 01-16-2017, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
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It's because we all go through the same phase as the girl in this video but forget how difficult it was...then take it for granted.


"Recipe for disaster"
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Words well scripted, each sentence choking
Inaudible gag, blanket which suffocates
As you eat another's words
Malnourished, you starve.
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post #30 of 33 Old 01-16-2017, 05:24 PM
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Back to the OP question:

The more that I think on this the more it becomes apparent that there are clearly different ways of doing things but I will tell you how I ride.

I am not the fastest guy out there (but I know my methods are the same as the fastest guys I know...MA Pros).

My theory is simple: If I am slowing down on a race track it is my goal to slow down as quickly as possible meaning that if I am braking, I should always be braking as hard as conditions allow. If you are braking but not using 100%, you are wasting time. This means that if I am braking in a straight line, my rear tire had better be 'dancing' meaning that it is just at the point of losing contact with the pavement. Anything less means that I could have stayed on the gas longer. If I am braking in a corner it should be so that the front end just starts to push.

This is really splitting hairs here, and it is a technique that all of the really fast guys I know use but ALL of them use closed throttle braking. There are a few oddball spots where we are on the gas a little while braking (think less than 5%) but it is always at the end of the braking zone and used for suspension/geometry adjustments.

Honestly I couldn't imagine braking any other way but again the vast majority of the tracks that I ride are very 'point and shoot' and not very flowing. Can the guys who ride those long sweeper tracks chime in on this? Are there times where you are still significantly on the throttle while braking? If so, why? What is the thought process behind it?
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