'13+ 636cc in the 600cc class - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 06:50 PM
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Very recently manufacturers have started to re-institute contingency. Kawasaki started with it LAST year...which pisses me off because I would have won thousands of dollars if it covered my '13. I guess that is what I get for taking a chance on a little company like Kawasaki instead of going with a sure thing like the Yamaha. Can you tell that it is a sore subject for me?
I just don't like that they require the bikes to be made within the last 2 years. So now for 2017, you basically have to have at least a 2016. How many people honestly race on new bikes? Most of us buy used, or if we buy new, we keep them for more than 2 years. I don't see myself ever meeting the 2-year limit. Even now with this R3 I got, I came close...but it's a 2015 so not good enough for Yamaha contingency

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post #17 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 06:53 PM
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I just don't like that they require the bikes to be made within the last 2 years. So now for 2017, you basically have to have at least a 2016. How many people honestly race on new bikes? Most of us buy used, or if we buy new, we keep them for more than 2 years. I don't see myself ever meeting the 2-year limit. Even now with this R3 I got, I came close...but it's a 2015 so not good enough for Yamaha contingency
You need rich parents. Either that or a ton of sponsors. It's what it came down to when I was walking around the MotoAmerica pits at Laguna Seca and talking to some of the racers.

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post #18 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 07:21 PM
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I don't have either (not that my parents would help with that anyway lol). MA is expensive, but I'm not even talking about that. Just club racing.

I'm strongly considering switching to Bridgestones just because they pay contingency. I will wait and see where I stand though at first because if I'm not even close to getting podiums then there's no point in switching cuz I wouldn't get anything anyway. Cost of tires is about the same, so might as well go with the tires I like.

If you're an expert and you're fast enough to win races, having a bike that pays contingency (like a ZX10R) combined with Bridgestone tires can yield you some pretty good money. Enough to pay for all your race fees and tires. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near that lol
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post #19 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 07:31 PM
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you can build a salvaged 16 and race for contingency, lotsa racers do this, buy last year (1yr old) salvage, hell one of the members on here was helping me look for a 13+

unfortunately he kept on sending me 16 thinking i needed it for contingency lol

due to the nature of this sport, there will always be alot of low mileage bikes that get salvaged before their first oil change.
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post #20 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 08:02 PM
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you can build a salvaged 16 and race for contingency, lotsa racers do this, buy last year (1yr old) salvage, hell one of the members on here was helping me look for a 13+

unfortunately he kept on sending me 16 thinking i needed it for contingency lol

due to the nature of this sport, there will always be alot of low mileage bikes that get salvaged before their first oil change.
Yeah that's how I got my R3...salvage, 417 miles...but 2015. Could not find a 2016 that was cheap enough. Plus I wouldn't want to do that every year. A 2016 would be good for now, but next year not anymore. If I'm gonna build a bike I want to have it for longer than a year or two.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
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2013 CBR500R (race bike)
2009 ZX6R (race bike)
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post #21 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 11:46 PM
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No, sliding a tire or 'pushing' as we call it is another matter. Pushing is expected (even desired). Chatter is when the front end tries to react to imperfections in the road surface under significant front end load (either extreme cornering or cornering/trail braking) but cannot react fast enough. The result is that the front tire actually skips along the pavement. If you do it hard enough you can actually hear a rapid 'chirp-chirp-chirp' as it happens. NOT a good feeling I can tell you. It is the result of a weak front frame spur and possibly some metallurgy. Kawasaki has been known for this for many years. It only happens when you really push hard. I am talking the top 1%.







Well, you hit the nail on the head there. Chatter can be tuned out if you are running Pirelli tires. You still get chatter but it is very manageable.



The main issues with chatter seem to come with a combination of a weak Kawasaki frame and the much stiffer sidewalls of Dunlop tires. Unfortunately, these are the spec tire for MA which is why you almost never see a ZX6R on the MA grid.







The simple fact is that the R6 is better out of the box. It is also easy to ride fast. The Kawasaki requires more skill and more setup time/money but has a higher ceiling for performance in my opinion.



There are several reasons why the R6 'dominates' US based racing:



Yamaha was the last company to give up contingency - meaning that Yamaha PAID you if you won races while running a R6. Racers go where the money is so the top guys all made the switch. The slower guys all saw what the fast guys were on and made the switch, figuring that was what made them fast (silly rabbit). Now there is a massive pool of R6s on the grids and they are easy/cheap to find used so the cycle continues. New racers come in, look at the grids and buy a used R6 that is already set up for cheap.



The R6 is super easy to ride fast. The Kawasaki requires more work from the rider. It requires a higher skill cap to ride it at the limit. The R6 just...goes. It is a very compliant package that inspires confidence early on. The Kawasaki still feels like it is fighting me most of the time. It does not inspire the same confidence that I get from the R6 (my GSXR was actually the best bike for this). Basically if you are of medium skill, you can ride a little bit above your level on the R6. Once you get to a higher skill level, again the Kawasaki shines.



Spare Parts. Because of #1 and #2 above, there are a plethora of cheap spares available.





Now, with all that said, why did I choose a ZX6R?



More Power. There is no denying that the ZX6R is a beast and can put down some very impressive numbers. The ability to modify cam timing is HUGE but Kawasaki is the only manufacturer to ship their bikes with OEM adjustable cam gears. Since the bracket that I race in requires that you do not modify the cams at all, the Kawasaki made a lot of sense here. I came from a very underpowered GSXR (104hp lol) so I wanted to make sure that I was the one pulling on the straights for a change. The Kawasaki is an absolute demon on the throttle coming out of corners.



A higher skill cap. As I mentioned above I feel that the ZX is able to go further than the R6 is in the right hands...I am just not certain if mine are the right ones =). If you doubt me, look at the BSS grids...a lot more Kawasaki bikes than anything else.



A path less taken. Sure, I could hop on an R6 and win but that is not me. I enjoy the learning curve. The act of figuring out the best way to do something, experimenting, improving, and trying again. It is more impressive to me to be standing on a podium next to a bunch of guys on their 'king of the 600s' R6s knowing that *I* did this. I did not copy someone elses racing campaign and rode it. This is mine.


I do enjoy reading you replies. You have a very methodical way of explaining even the most simplest of issues. You should be a lecturer at a super bike school or something.


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post #22 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 08:18 AM
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I do enjoy reading you replies. You have a very methodical way of explaining even the most simplest of issues. You should be a lecturer at a super bike school or something.


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Pretty sure he is.

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post #23 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 08:36 AM
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I don't have either (not that my parents would help with that anyway lol). MA is expensive, but I'm not even talking about that. Just club racing.

I'm strongly considering switching to Bridgestones just because they pay contingency. I will wait and see where I stand though at first because if I'm not even close to getting podiums then there's no point in switching cuz I wouldn't get anything anyway. Cost of tires is about the same, so might as well go with the tires I like.

If you're an expert and you're fast enough to win races, having a bike that pays contingency (like a ZX10R) combined with Bridgestone tires can yield you some pretty good money. Enough to pay for all your race fees and tires. Unfortunately I'm nowhere near that lol
You answered your own question. Contingency is only designed to help the top 2%. It is for the absolute top guys at your track. The guys that everyone looks up to and says "I wanna be like those guys'...so they buy their loyalty with contingency insuring that ALL the up and comers who idolize him will follow suit and buy a similar bike.

Do not mistake contingency as goodwill from a company because they love the sport. It is marketing money, plain and simple. Like all marketing, it is an investment and they expect a return. How many R1s do you think Yamaha has sold as a result of the couple R1s that they gave to Josh Hayes? If the return wasn't there, they wouldn't be doing it. It is all about ROI.

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I do enjoy reading you replies. You have a very methodical way of explaining even the most simplest of issues. You should be a lecturer at a super bike school or something.


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Commie got me covered but if you sign up for the advanced racing class at the Penguin Racing School (the oldest school in the country!) then I would be one of your instructors. If you think that I know my stuff, you should meet Eric Wood (multiple national title holder and STUPIDLY fast guy). I love working with him as we have very similar thinking and process.
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post #24 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 08:39 AM
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You answered your own question. Contingency is only designed to help the top 2%. It is for the absolute top guys at your track. The guys that everyone looks up to and says "I wanna be like those guys'...so they buy their loyalty with contingency insuring that ALL the up and comers who idolize him will follow suit and buy a similar bike.

Do not mistake contingency as goodwill from a company because they love the sport. It is marketing money, plain and simple. Like all marketing, it is an investment and they expect a return. How many R1s do you think Yamaha has sold as a result of the couple R1s that they gave to Josh Hayes? If the return wasn't there, they wouldn't be doing it. It is all about ROI.
Right, but it's a little more than top 2%. They actually pay contingency even to amateurs for top 3 finishes as long as there are at least 10 on the grid if I recall. So that would be for up to 30% in most of the common classes, like Supersport, Superbike, GP and GT.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
2006 CBR600 (sold)
2010 1198 (parted out across North America)
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post #25 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 08:56 AM
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Pretty sure you guys are American so I would be unable to ever attend such a school. But for not knowing that you are a lecturer it was a pretty Dahm good analysis from me there.


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post #26 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 09:04 AM Thread Starter
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Right, but it's a little more than top 2%. They actually pay contingency even to amateurs for top 3 finishes as long as there are at least 10 on the grid if I recall. So that would be for up to 30% in most of the common classes, like Supersport, Superbike, GP and GT.
No kidding? Bridgestone tire contingency? I should look into this before my amateur season. It may not apply for CVMA racing though.

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post #27 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 09:53 AM
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No kidding? Bridgestone tire contingency? I should look into this before my amateur season. It may not apply for CVMA racing though.
Not sure, I only looked at CCS contingencies, and Bridgestone was one of the companies that offered some. I imagine they offer it for other organizations as well, so look into it if you're willing to run Bridgestones.

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post #28 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 10:17 AM
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Right, but it's a little more than top 2%. They actually pay contingency even to amateurs for top 3 finishes as long as there are at least 10 on the grid if I recall. So that would be for up to 30% in most of the common classes, like Supersport, Superbike, GP and GT.
Call it the top percent of each class then. The point is that it is for dedicated winners.

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No kidding? Bridgestone tire contingency? I should look into this before my amateur season. It may not apply for CVMA racing though.
No amount of money would have me racing on tomb...err bridgestones.
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post #29 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 10:42 AM
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Call it the top percent of each class then. The point is that it is for dedicated winners.



No amount of money would have me racing on tomb...err bridgestones.
LOL really? Why not? For me my order of preference is this:

1. Pirelli
2. Bridgestone
3. Michelin
4. Dunlaps

I've tried almost all the slicks and DOT race tires of each one (granted have not tried some of the newer models such as the EVO line of the Michelins, or the Dunlop slicks). For me the top 3 are all about the same when it comes to their front tires. It's the rear where the Pirelli shines in my opinion, but the Bridgestones were very close too.

2007 ZZR600 (sold)
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2009 ZX6R (race bike)
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post #30 of 57 Old 01-24-2017, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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LOL really? Why not? For me my order of preference is this:

1. Pirelli
2. Bridgestone
3. Michelin
4. Dunlaps

I've tried almost all the slicks and DOT race tires of each one (granted have not tried some of the newer models such as the EVO line of the Michelins, or the Dunlop slicks). For me the top 3 are all about the same when it comes to their front tires. It's the rear where the Pirelli shines in my opinion, but the Bridgestones were very close too.
So much hate on the Dunlops! Why don't you like them?

You can pick up a 190 rear for like $165. I haven't actually tried Pirelli, so I can't speak to the comparison, but I love the Dunlops. Tons of grip, super predictable and you can't beat the price.
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