'13+ 636cc in the 600cc class - ZX6R Forum
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post #1 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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'13+ 636cc in the 600cc class

It seems to me that these bikes are almost like cheating in the middleweight SuperSport class.

Between the added 37ccs and the fact that you can legally bump the compression with a thinner head gasket (since we've been blessed with a STUPID thick OEM one) and degree the cams, how are more people not interested in using the '13+ as a racing platform?

Does the R6 have a thick head gasket that can easily be swapped for a thinner one as well?

Discuss.
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post #2 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ninjaman89 View Post
It seems to me that these bikes are almost like cheating in the middleweight SuperSport class.

Between the added 37ccs and the fact that you can legally bump the compression with a thinner head gasket (since we've been blessed with a STUPID thick OEM one) and degree the cams, how are more people not interested in using the '13+ as a racing platform?

Does the R6 have a thick head gasket that can easily be swapped for a thinner one as well?

Discuss.
The *potential* for our bikes is very high. It requires work to realize that potential. Furthermore our frames suck and chatter is a very common issue when these bikes are really pushed. The R6 is a very capable bike that requires almost nothing (comparatively) to reach its maximum potential. It is also a screamer so it makes its power very high in the rev range where our bikes start to fall off a little so on longer tracks the R6 will shine. Our bikes pull like a mule off of corners which is where we excel; the ZX loves shorter, twistier tracks.

Doing basic mods (thinner head gasket, fuel controller, exhaust, race air filter) the R6 will put down about 116 with a fresh motor whereas our bikes with the same mods will reach 119 on a good day. Not the end of the world. The big difference comes when you start to modify your airbox (velocity stacks) and take advantage of the fact that our bikes come with variable cams. THAT is when we start to shine but not before.

For those people willing to invest the time and/or money to get there, the ZX becomes a better bike (if you can deal with the chatter). Most club racers are not willing to invest that so the R6 becomes the logical choice. It is a powerful contender with very little work.
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post #3 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
The *potential* for our bikes is very high. It requires work to realize that potential. Furthermore our frames suck and chatter is a very common issue when these bikes are really pushed. The R6 is a very capable bike that requires almost nothing (comparatively) to reach its maximum potential. It is also a screamer so it makes its power very high in the rev range where our bikes start to fall off a little so on longer tracks the R6 will shine. Our bikes pull like a mule off of corners which is where we excel; the ZX loves shorter, twistier tracks.

Doing basic mods (thinner head gasket, fuel controller, exhaust, race air filter) the R6 will put down about 116 with a fresh motor whereas our bikes with the same mods will reach 119 on a good day. Not the end of the world. The big difference comes when you start to modify your airbox (velocity stacks) and take advantage of the fact that our bikes come with variable cams. THAT is when we start to shine but not before.

For those people willing to invest the time and/or money to get there, the ZX becomes a better bike (if you can deal with the chatter). Most club racers are not willing to invest that so the R6 becomes the logical choice. It is a powerful contender with very little work.
I was under the impressions with that list of modifications, our bikes were closer to 128-130? I understand wanting to have something more ready to go out of the box, so to speak, but it's really not THAT much work...maybe a weekend?

That's interesting you mention the velocity stacks. We were just talking about that recently. Seems like an extremely cheap/easy modification to move the power band. Do you have any actual data that compares the OEM velocity stacks to the 09+ ones? I'm actually going to be ordering some today.
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post #4 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 02:42 PM
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When you speak of "chatter" are you referring to the sliding of the bike felt by Moto gp riders?
Or is it a lesser version of that based upon maybe a faulty part or badly set up bike??


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post #5 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 03:58 PM
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When you speak of "chatter" are you referring to the sliding of the bike felt by Moto gp riders?
Or is it a lesser version of that based upon maybe a faulty part or badly set up bike??


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Chatter from the front end during hard trailbraking. I've heard some mixed opinions on this. I heard about it before I bought my '09 and was a bit concerned so I started asking others that have had '09+ zx6r's and was told a mixture of opinions. Overall it sounded like it's only noticeable to the guys that are very fast, like the top expert guys, or pros, and even then it's also fixable with geometry and suspension setup. I've talked to a couple of really fast guys, including Jason Farrell (our midwest area Kawasaki race guru), who had no issues with chatter once they made some adjustments to ride height and forks, as well as running on Pirellis.

I have yet to notice any chatter from mine, but I'm also not at that skill level.
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post #6 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ninjaman89 View Post
I was under the impressions with that list of modifications, our bikes were closer to 128-130? I understand wanting to have something more ready to go out of the box, so to speak, but it's really not THAT much work...maybe a weekend?

That's interesting you mention the velocity stacks. We were just talking about that recently. Seems like an extremely cheap/easy modification to move the power band. Do you have any actual data that compares the OEM velocity stacks to the 09+ ones? I'm actually going to be ordering some today.
You need a dyno with forced induction to actually test this but I can tell you that the bike pulls harder at the top of the rev range with the 09 stacks on it. The only data that I have is that I typically gain on the R6s going down the straight until about 13,500 rpms and then we kind of stalemate. After the stack change I continued pulling until redline.

As for the HP numbers, I am able to put down just about 130 AFTER I degree'd the cams but not before. I had a dyno run done right after I did all the other mods (Fuel management, exhaust, air filter) and it came in right at 117. After the head gasket it was 119. After degreeing the cams and changed the ignition/timing map it came in at 128 on 93 pump gas. With actual race fuel I can hit 131.

This is the initial run on the dyno after fuel, air, and exhaust.

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post #7 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 05:20 PM
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the r6 dominates everything

it hasnt changed since 08

this chassis from 09 with the updates in 13 still looses to the damn r6 dated back in 08

the r6 is such a champion winner the 17 is essentially an 08 with new electronics aids and new plastics.....

also hp is nothing, we got 600cc winning in litrebike classes in our club, yea they ex ama guys having fun but they are on the r6

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post #8 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 05:32 PM
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the r6 dominates everything

it hasnt changed since 08

this chassis from 09 with the updates in 13 still looses to the damn r6 dated back in 08

the r6 is such a champion winner the 17 is essentially an 08 with new electronics aids and new plastics.....

also hp is nothing, we got 600cc winning in litrebike classes in our club, yea they ex ama guys having fun but they are on the r6
Not really dominating. In WSS, since 2008 Yamaha has had 3 championships (2009, 2011, and 2013), equal to Honda and Kawasaki. In BSB Supersport, only once in 2013, whereas Kawasaki and Triumph won a lot more.

The R6 dominates here in the US only, in the YamahaAmerica....ooops, I meant MotoAmerica championship Of course it dominates when everyone is on a Yamaha. Sort of like how Ducati dominated WSBK for so long, during all those years where about 2/3 of the grid was on a Ducati! No shit, they're going to win a lot! lol

Don't get me wrong, the R6 is a fantastic bike, but it's not way better by any means. The ZX6R definitely gives it a run for its money. Those 2 are on very equal terms. I had a hard time deciding between those 2. In the end money talked and the ZX6R I found was a better deal than any R6 I came across at the time.
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post #9 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
You need a dyno with forced induction to actually test this but I can tell you that the bike pulls harder at the top of the rev range with the 09 stacks on it. The only data that I have is that I typically gain on the R6s going down the straight until about 13,500 rpms and then we kind of stalemate. After the stack change I continued pulling until redline.

As for the HP numbers, I am able to put down just about 130 AFTER I degree'd the cams but not before. I had a dyno run done right after I did all the other mods (Fuel management, exhaust, air filter) and it came in right at 117. After the head gasket it was 119. After degreeing the cams and changed the ignition/timing map it came in at 128 on 93 pump gas. With actual race fuel I can hit 131.

This is the initial run on the dyno after fuel, air, and exhaust.
Thanks for the great info! I'm still hoping someone actually puts the new stacks on a dyno for a direct comparison to the OEM ones, but this gets pretty close

I knew I wasn't crazy about seeing that 130hp!

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After degreeing the cams and changed the ignition/timing map it came in at 128 on 93 pump gas.
Can you elaborate a little on changing the ignition/timing map? Do you just mean getting it back on a dyno (or an auto-tuner) and dialing in you AFM ratios to ~12.8-13.0, or are you referring to an ECU change?
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post #10 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 05:49 PM
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Not really dominating. In WSS, since 2008 Yamaha has had 3 championships (2009, 2011, and 2013), equal to Honda and Kawasaki. In BSB Supersport, only once in 2013, whereas Kawasaki and Triumph won a lot more.

The R6 dominates here in the US only, in the YamahaAmerica....ooops, I meant MotoAmerica championship Of course it dominates when everyone is on a Yamaha. Sort of like how Ducati dominated WSBK for so long, during all those years where about 2/3 of the grid was on a Ducati! No shit, they're going to win a lot! lol

Don't get me wrong, the R6 is a fantastic bike, but it's not way better by any means. The ZX6R definitely gives it a run for its money. Those 2 are on very equal terms. I had a hard time deciding between those 2. In the end money talked and the ZX6R I found was a better deal than any R6 I came across at the time.
Lol I call the MA 600 SS/STK the R6 Cup! I just bought my zx6r last year and considered an R6 until I saw how many people are riding them....it's the me too bike of right now here in the USA!
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post #11 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Andie0 View Post
When you speak of "chatter" are you referring to the sliding of the bike felt by Moto gp riders?
Or is it a lesser version of that based upon maybe a faulty part or badly set up bike??


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No, sliding a tire or 'pushing' as we call it is another matter. Pushing is expected (even desired). Chatter is when the front end tries to react to imperfections in the road surface under significant front end load (either extreme cornering or cornering/trail braking) but cannot react fast enough. The result is that the front tire actually skips along the pavement. If you do it hard enough you can actually hear a rapid 'chirp-chirp-chirp' as it happens. NOT a good feeling I can tell you. It is the result of a weak front frame spur and possibly some metallurgy. Kawasaki has been known for this for many years. It only happens when you really push hard. I am talking the top 1%.

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Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
Chatter from the front end during hard trailbraking. I've heard some mixed opinions on this. I heard about it before I bought my '09 and was a bit concerned so I started asking others that have had '09+ zx6r's and was told a mixture of opinions. Overall it sounded like it's only noticeable to the guys that are very fast, like the top expert guys, or pros, and even then it's also fixable with geometry and suspension setup. I've talked to a couple of really fast guys, including Jason Farrell (our midwest area Kawasaki race guru), who had no issues with chatter once they made some adjustments to ride height and forks, as well as running on Pirellis.

I have yet to notice any chatter from mine, but I'm also not at that skill level.
Well, you hit the nail on the head there. Chatter can be tuned out if you are running Pirelli tires. You still get chatter but it is very manageable.

The main issues with chatter seem to come with a combination of a weak Kawasaki frame and the much stiffer sidewalls of Dunlop tires. Unfortunately, these are the spec tire for MA which is why you almost never see a ZX6R on the MA grid.

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Not really dominating. In WSS, since 2008 Yamaha has had 3 championships (2009, 2011, and 2013), equal to Honda and Kawasaki. In BSB Supersport, only once in 2013, whereas Kawasaki and Triumph won a lot more.

The R6 dominates here in the US only, in the YamahaAmerica....ooops, I meant MotoAmerica championship Of course it dominates when everyone is on a Yamaha. Sort of like how Ducati dominated WSBK for so long, during all those years where about 2/3 of the grid was on a Ducati! No shit, they're going to win a lot! lol

Don't get me wrong, the R6 is a fantastic bike, but it's not way better by any means. The ZX6R definitely gives it a run for its money. Those 2 are on very equal terms. I had a hard time deciding between those 2. In the end money talked and the ZX6R I found was a better deal than any R6 I came across at the time.
The simple fact is that the R6 is better out of the box. It is also easy to ride fast. The Kawasaki requires more skill and more setup time/money but has a higher ceiling for performance in my opinion.

There are several reasons why the R6 'dominates' US based racing:

Yamaha was the last company to give up contingency - meaning that Yamaha PAID you if you won races while running a R6. Racers go where the money is so the top guys all made the switch. The slower guys all saw what the fast guys were on and made the switch, figuring that was what made them fast (silly rabbit). Now there is a massive pool of R6s on the grids and they are easy/cheap to find used so the cycle continues. New racers come in, look at the grids and buy a used R6 that is already set up for cheap.

The R6 is super easy to ride fast. The Kawasaki requires more work from the rider. It requires a higher skill cap to ride it at the limit. The R6 just...goes. It is a very compliant package that inspires confidence early on. The Kawasaki still feels like it is fighting me most of the time. It does not inspire the same confidence that I get from the R6 (my GSXR was actually the best bike for this). Basically if you are of medium skill, you can ride a little bit above your level on the R6. Once you get to a higher skill level, again the Kawasaki shines.

Spare Parts. Because of #1 and #2 above, there are a plethora of cheap spares available.


Now, with all that said, why did I choose a ZX6R?

More Power. There is no denying that the ZX6R is a beast and can put down some very impressive numbers. The ability to modify cam timing is HUGE but Kawasaki is the only manufacturer to ship their bikes with OEM adjustable cam gears. Since the bracket that I race in requires that you do not modify the cams at all, the Kawasaki made a lot of sense here. I came from a very underpowered GSXR (104hp lol) so I wanted to make sure that I was the one pulling on the straights for a change. The Kawasaki is an absolute demon on the throttle coming out of corners.

A higher skill cap. As I mentioned above I feel that the ZX is able to go further than the R6 is in the right hands...I am just not certain if mine are the right ones =). If you doubt me, look at the BSS grids...a lot more Kawasaki bikes than anything else.

A path less taken. Sure, I could hop on an R6 and win but that is not me. I enjoy the learning curve. The act of figuring out the best way to do something, experimenting, improving, and trying again. It is more impressive to me to be standing on a podium next to a bunch of guys on their 'king of the 600s' R6s knowing that *I* did this. I did not copy someone elses racing campaign and rode it. This is mine.
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post #12 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ninjaman89 View Post
Thanks for the great info! I'm still hoping someone actually puts the new stacks on a dyno for a direct comparison to the OEM ones, but this gets pretty close

I knew I wasn't crazy about seeing that 130hp!



Can you elaborate a little on changing the ignition/timing map? Do you just mean getting it back on a dyno (or an auto-tuner) and dialing in you AFM ratios to ~12.8-13.0, or are you referring to an ECU change?
Just so we are perfectly clear the velocity stacks do not add more horsepower, they simply adjust where the power comes in and goes out. With the stock stacks our 13+ bikes kind of peter out at the top end (compared to other 600s). With the 09 stacks it allows us to continue pulling to redline at the cost of giving up a little bit in the lower rev range. Since I am rarely below 12k, the 09 stacks gave me more realized speed at an almost negligible cost.

Changing the timing map is something that is done inside the ECU. Basically when an engine fires its cylinder the piston is already on the way down. The resulting explosion pushes the piston down and we have a running engine. We advance the timing so that the cylinder is fired closer to top dead center, meaning that the compression is at its highest and the resulting detonation is more powerful a.k.a more horsepower. You have to be careful with this as tolerances inside our bikes are very tight and if you advance the timing too much your piston will meet your valves as they will not have time to close. As you might imagine, this is kind of critical :-p
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post #13 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Just so we are perfectly clear the velocity stacks do not add more horsepower, they simply adjust where the power comes in and goes out. With the stock stacks our 13+ bikes kind of peter out at the top end (compared to other 600s). With the 09 stacks it allows us to continue pulling to redline at the cost of giving up a little bit in the lower rev range. Since I am rarely below 12k, the 09 stacks gave me more realized speed at an almost negligible cost.
Right, understood. The loss in mid range hardly matters because you're never in low enough RPMs.

Quote:
Changing the timing map is something that is done inside the ECU. Basically when an engine fires its cylinder the piston is already on the way down. The resulting explosion pushes the piston down and we have a running engine. We advance the timing so that the cylinder is fired closer to top dead center, meaning that the compression is at its highest and the resulting detonation is more powerful a.k.a more horsepower. You have to be careful with this as tolerances inside our bikes are very tight and if you advance the timing too much your piston will meet your valves as they will not have time to close. As you might imagine, this is kind of critical :-p
Wait...why would that be critical?

Seriously though, that makes sense, but sounds like something I should only be interested in after I've gotten my skill level high enough. For now I'll be happy around the 117 mark with a head gasket and usual power goodies.

Out of curiosity, what kind of hp are the R6s pulling? That 104hp on your GSXR is hilariously low lol
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post #14 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 06:28 PM
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Yamaha was the last company to give up contingency - meaning that Yamaha PAID you if you won races while running a R6. Racers go where the money is so the top guys all made the switch. The slower guys all saw what the fast guys were on and made the switch, figuring that was what made them fast (silly rabbit). Now there is a massive pool of R6s on the grids and they are easy/cheap to find used so the cycle continues. New racers come in, look at the grids and buy a used R6 that is already set up for cheap.
What do you mean by give up contingency? I was actually checking CCS' contingency and it looks like Yamaha, Kawasaki and BMW are paying contingency for certain bikes and classes. I think Honda does a tiny bit too but can't remember for sure.

Geoff May said he won $25,000 in contingency on the new ZX10R last year, which is now for sale....in case anyone wants to buy a badass bike
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post #15 of 57 Old 01-23-2017, 06:42 PM
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What do you mean by give up contingency? I was actually checking CCS' contingency and it looks like Yamaha, Kawasaki and BMW are paying contingency for certain bikes and classes. I think Honda does a tiny bit too but can't remember for sure.

Geoff May said he won $25,000 in contingency on the new ZX10R last year, which is now for sale....in case anyone wants to buy a badass bike
Very recently manufacturers have started to re-institute contingency. Kawasaki started with it LAST year...which pisses me off because I would have won thousands of dollars if it covered my '13. I guess that is what I get for taking a chance on a little company like Kawasaki instead of going with a sure thing like the Yamaha. Can you tell that it is a sore subject for me?
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