Downshifting with a slipper clutch. Several quick downshifts okay? - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 57 Old 04-13-2017, 10:22 AM
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Anyone on this thread using the Sigma? I've read some decent testamonials on other message boards but wondering if anyone here has 1st hand experience. Seems to be pretty reasonably priced (just less than 600 pounds) and more tolerant of the clutch stack setup so I'm thinking of giving it a try. It sounds that around here the Yoyodyne is the more common choice but i thought i read somewhere that the clutch stack height is pretty critical with their design.

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post #17 of 57 Old 04-13-2017, 11:48 AM
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this is a great topic. if I need to really burn off speed I won't rev match.
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post #18 of 57 Old 04-14-2017, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
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Another slipper clutch user review from a 600rr: Honda CBR600RR - Product Review Yoyodyne slipper clutch

Well, the one thing I could feel was a click in the clutch lever as I'd pull it in. I'm told this is normal. Getting it out onto the track I figured I'd hear it or feel something, but I felt & heard nothing. Well what the heck? Is this thing working?? So down the cold track I went hard in 4th gear. I grabbed the brakes and dropped it to 1st and dumped the clutch. The back tire locked. Hmmmmm that's not right... Looking back (after I determined it was indeed working), the move was pretty stupid as I was hard on the brakes unweighting the rear end and the track was pretty cold so there was little grip to cause the slip, so the tire locked.

Talking to another dealer of Yoyodyne parts, I was told "if you don't feel it working, it's working. You won't notice it, you won't hear anything, it's working.". Then I thought... I'm flying into corners, going from topped out in 6th gear dropping down 4 gears as fast as I can fly through them with NO wheel hop or rear end waggle. In fact, the bike doesn't redline when I do this! Yes! Indeed!! It IS working...

The more I got used to it, the more I realized I could brake MUCH later. No longer do I have to worry about taking my time between downshifts. I can bang through them as quick as I can work the controls and it's all SMOOTH AND STABLE!

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Maybe @PainfullySlo and some other racers/ instructors will chime in

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post #19 of 57 Old 04-14-2017, 04:44 AM
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Good topic. Places like Road America is where you really get better at this since you have to go from 6th to 2nd or 6th to 3rd in a couple of spots every lap.

Personally I don't suggest you do multiple clicks all at once with the clutch pulled in and then release it. Can't say I've ever tried it though at the track, only on the street a long time ago. It just doesn't seem to provide enough control and during that time you're doing those shifts, although it's no more than a second, that is a lot of time to have essentially zero engine braking, which can make a big difference when you're braking from 150 mph. The way I do it, with or without slipper clutch is:

pull lever, downshift, release lever about halfway, pull lever, downshift, release lever halfway, downshift, and so on until the last gear and on that if I have a slipper I'm usually fine with just dumping the lever, or if I have a regular clutch I release it slower. I never blip the throttle cuz I suck at it. I tried...just can't get it. My method has worked great for me and it's very smooth.

Here's an illustration from a guy I know who used to race in AMA. I do it the same way as far as I can tell, though I've never filmed my hands. Pretty sure I've posted this somewhere on here before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ACOnbUBtQ&t=70s
Great topic, I used to suck at blipping as well. As much as I tried I just couldn't get the darn thing down pack. What finally helped me get it right was a device called CAB auto blipper. It was made for the Yamaha sport bike brand and the first time I heard about auto blippers. The Cab would physically take control of your throttle and produce a perfect blip. After some time of riding with the auto blipper, I now find it easy to do and blip everything I ride. I now only turn on the auto blipper if I'm on the track with the R1. I don't think I could ever trust a slipper clutch but I said the same thing about the auto blipper after the first ride. It was very scary since it physically grabbed the throttle from you and gave a quick and demanding twist of the throttle. When the device did that with my 1000 dyno'ed at 173 HP, I almost had a heart attach and thought it was a wrap for me.

Since I used to ride exactly how you described above and found it very effective and fast, I can tell you once you get the blipping right, it is so much more effective then the way your currently do it.
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post #20 of 57 Old 04-14-2017, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by russperry View Post
Anyone on this thread using the Sigma? I've read some decent testamonials on other message boards but wondering if anyone here has 1st hand experience. Seems to be pretty reasonably priced (just less than 600 pounds) and more tolerant of the clutch stack setup so I'm thinking of giving it a try. It sounds that around here the Yoyodyne is the more common choice but i thought i read somewhere that the clutch stack height is pretty critical with their design.

Comments?
I've heard pretty good things about Sigma as well, but they're more common in Europe, not so much around here.

I have an STM clutch in my zx6r, which is a very different design compared to other clutches. At first I wasn't a big fan of it until I realized it's because it had too soft of a secondary spring in it (they use 2 oddly shaped springs, a primary and secondary, and the secondary one is basically what controls the engine braking). They sell multiple springs for each of the two so I went with a much stiffer one and now I really like the way it feels. I prefer to have a bit less slip and more engine braking in my clutch, which also means it goes to full engagement a bit quicker after a downshift. But that's all rider preference.

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post #21 of 57 Old 04-16-2017, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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post #22 of 57 Old 04-16-2017, 09:08 PM
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I do not blip/rev match on the track, ever. That is why you have a clutch. In maximizing braking, there is no time to attempt to blip between gears.

I do not attempt to click more than 1 gear at a time though...On my local track I go from 6th to 3rd for the first turn. I very quickly release the clutch just enough to engage between shifts as it helps everything mesh properly.

With a full aftermarket slipper clutch, I literally bang the gears and let the clutch lever fly...they are that good and it will sort everything out. With the OEM slippers which I currently have I still need to modulate the clutch a little or I will get wheel hop.

I am due to be on the track in 2 weeks. I will try to get some video footage of the process but it is very fast.
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post #23 of 57 Old 04-16-2017, 11:54 PM
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I feel better about my poor bike at the track now. I can blip but that's usually at the end of some long straight where I have plenty of time to think about shit but most of the time it's just bang it down..

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post #24 of 57 Old 04-17-2017, 06:42 AM
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I do not blip/rev match on the track, ever. That is why you have a clutch. In maximizing braking, there is no time to attempt to blip between gears.

I do not attempt to click more than 1 gear at a time though...On my local track I go from 6th to 3rd for the first turn. I very quickly release the clutch just enough to engage between shifts as it helps everything mesh properly.

With a full aftermarket slipper clutch, I literally bang the gears and let the clutch lever fly...they are that good and it will sort everything out. With the OEM slippers which I currently have I still need to modulate the clutch a little or I will get wheel hop.

I am due to be on the track in 2 weeks. I will try to get some video footage of the process but it is very fast.
On a 300 or the 600? I may make the drive out to watch and see how everything works at the races.
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post #25 of 57 Old 04-17-2017, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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So far what I understand is this:

OEM Slipper: Take it 1 gear at a time and pull the lever to the friction point in a fast successive manner

Aftermarket slipper: Downshift as many gears as you want and dump the clutch
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post #26 of 57 Old 04-17-2017, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalcrew View Post
On a 300 or the 600? I may make the drive out to watch and see how everything works at the races.
On the 636. I will be riding on Friday only.

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So far what I understand is this:

OEM Slipper: Take it 1 gear at a time and pull the lever to the friction point in a fast successive manner

Aftermarket slipper: Downshift as many gears as you want and dump the clutch
That pretty much sums it up.
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post #27 of 57 Old 04-17-2017, 10:01 PM
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Well fuck. Yet another amazing thread that humbles me and makes me feel like a fucking newb. I have always just dropped multiple gears and on OEM clutch and thought nothing of it. Always thought of it as a built in 2nd break in addition to my front break when slowing down for turns from straight aways. I will now spend two days this weekend attempting to learn how to let off the clutch between every gear while down shifting as I dont have 900 bucks to throw at a slipper haha.
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post #28 of 57 Old 04-18-2017, 03:51 AM
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Well fuck. Yet another amazing thread that humbles me and makes me feel like a fucking newb. I have always just dropped multiple gears and on OEM clutch and thought nothing of it. Always thought of it as a built in 2nd break in addition to my front break when slowing down for turns from straight aways. I will now spend two days this weekend attempting to learn how to let off the clutch between every gear while down shifting as I dont have 900 bucks to throw at a slipper haha.
it's incredible how much you learn from these forums...
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post #29 of 57 Old 04-18-2017, 01:06 PM
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Ive done a few track days, and I've down shifted more than one gear with one pull. I dont really get what the big deal is if your breaking with this action. . .
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post #30 of 57 Old 04-18-2017, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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Ive done a few track days, and I've down shifted more than one gear with one pull. I dont really get what the big deal is if your breaking with this action. . .
You're probably doing a much better job than I am. I've tried single and multiple blip-less downshifts a couple of times (not enough TBH) and the back end feels a bit jumpy, not too much but just a bit. Obviously my technique is lacking so that's what I'm going to work on.

Like others have stated, dumping the clutch works pretty well at times but I notice it is a little less consistent than desired which defeats the purpose of have a stable corner entry. Next track day I'll try to decrease my braking marker distance and try to increase entry stability by shifting 1 gear at a time pulling the lever to the friction point down quickly. I'll also try the opposite (multiple downshifts) and see if by feathering to the desired gear, as opposed to dumping the clutch, I can get it to keep it nice and stable.
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