Strategies in track riding/road racing: Finding the limits of traction...safely - Page 4 - ZX6R Forum
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post #46 of 72 Old 11-24-2015, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Not sure exactly what that is but I assume it is something similar to the 'best theoretical lap' option that is a part of my QStarz laptimer software.



It has its uses, but also needs to be taken with a grain of salt.



For instance, my software will pick apart my laps by the entire track broken down into little segments then add up the fastest segment times to give you a 'theoretical best lap'. Meaning if you did everything right, that is your optimal lap time. It is good for a goal but it is inherently flawed as your fastest times in a particular section are highly dependent upon your entry and exit lines...which are affected by your earlier section trajectories. Still, it makes for some interesting discussion.



Here is the thing about lines, and this goes WELL beyond the intended scope of this writing. For the vast majority of turns, there is no magical one right line. (the one line to hold them and on the asphalt, bind them!)



One of my favorite questions to get (sarcasm) when instructing is for riders to ask me to show them my line with the assumption that I am fast, so my line must be the fastest line, right? Now, I understand why people ask me this and so I just chuckle and offer the following explanation:



Lines are determined by the rider skill, handling characteristics, and speed of the motorcycle. As all 3 of those things can vary quite a bit you will find that what works for someone else may not work for you. Hell, I even have different lines depending on which bike I am riding. For example: my line through turn 9 at my local track is completely different on a 70hp SV650 than it is on my 127hp ZX6R.



So, to me, those 'fastest lap calculators' make for some interesting fun and can certainly offer some insight, but overall there is no way for something like that to be 100% accurate. Hope this helps!

This is a program developed by a couple of swedish guys for fun a couple of years ago, then when a moto2 team called and asked for some functions, it wasnt for fun anymore.

Strategies in track riding/road racing: Finding the limits of traction...safely-imageuploadedbytapatalk1448431908.625195.jpg

To go with this, there is a lot of explaining on their youtube channel
http://youtu.be/c52L_Aq71_k
http://youtu.be/scSpYYdYIDs

I feel it could be useful, specially for going to a new track for a race, but i really dont know since there isnt so many using it, at least yet.
Would be fun if you took a look at it and told your thoughts.



"Its not about being first on the gas, its being first to full gas"
- Simon Crafar
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post #47 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 03:08 AM
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Hello,

Just here to say thanks, i read the article on page 1 and aplyied on the track this past weekend. (Monteblanco Spain)

Im on my first year riding so im slow.

Softer on the brakes and closed my lines a bit. Manage to get my laps 5 seconds below my previous lap record , much more consistent and manage to get several laps below the 1:59 mark wich was impossible one month ago.

Will keep reading everything on this forum.

Thanks for your input.

Will put a video link later on.
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post #48 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by CKwik240 View Post
I don't find it confusing at all. My original argument was that the apex is not the slowest part of the turn (which is what you said). If you make this assumption, your posts make sense, but take that assumption out for a moment and try and understand the physics. Look at the photo I posted in my last post. I think you can agree that the tighter the radius of the line a rider takes, the slower he has to go. If a rider takes a late apex, the line will require a tighter radius at the beginning. Which means THAT is the slowest point in the corner. If you want,I can prove it mathematically. Just ask.

Even with a late apex that requires a tighter tip in the rider is still braking AFTER they tip in, the rider continues to brake all of the way until the APEX, that makes the apex the SLOWEST point. It doesn't matter if it is an early, mid or late apex, the rider is braking until the apex.
This does not apply to amateurs and everyone that has done one track day but all of the pro's and fastest guys are doing this
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post #49 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKwik240 View Post
If a rider takes a late apex, the line will require a tighter radius at the beginning. Which means THAT is the slowest point in the corner. If you want,I can prove it mathematically. Just ask.
Please do.
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post #50 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by VULGR View Post
Even with a late apex that requires a tighter tip in the rider is still braking AFTER they tip in, the rider continues to brake all of the way until the APEX, that makes the apex the SLOWEST point. It doesn't matter if it is an early, mid or late apex, the rider is braking until the apex.
This does not apply to amateurs and everyone that has done one track day but all of the pro's and fastest guys are doing this
I'm really relieved that other people understand this as well. Cwik's entire argument is based off a couple cartoon's made in paint by some random person on the internet that he is presenting as if it were absolute truth, when the drawings are just flat wrong (at least for a motorcycle). For a "normal" corner that is ridden properly the beginning of the corner will not be the tightest part of the turn. If someone went out on a motorcycle and actually tried to accomplish that they would see how ridiculous you have to ride to do it.
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post #51 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VULGR View Post
Even with a late apex that requires a tighter tip in the rider is still braking AFTER they tip in, the rider continues to brake all of the way until the APEX, that makes the apex the SLOWEST point. It doesn't matter if it is an early, mid or late apex, the rider is braking until the apex.
This does not apply to amateurs and everyone that has done one track day but all of the pro's and fastest guys are doing this
Bingo...


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post #52 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 06:54 PM
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Please do.
Please refer to the attached photo for the mathematical part. I'll explain what the results mean in text here. Feel free to ask if there is any part of the math that doesn't make any sense. It is pretty simple algebra though.

The final equation shows the relationship between velocity and the minimum radius a which the bike can travel at that velocity without a loss of traction. Velocity is proportional to the square root of the radius. It is not an inverse relationship so if the radius is increased, the velocity can increase. If the radius decreases, the velocity decreases. It's a pretty common sense concept. How this relates back to what I've been saying is that in taking a late apex, the turn in must be sharper than the exit. The sharper section of the turn has a smaller radius so the instantaneous velocity must be lower. You simply can not defy this basic physical concept. If you start widening the line and hold your speed, you are leaving available traction on the table. Traction that could either allow you to accelerate, or hold a higher speed. In either case, the average velocity is lower than it could be for that given line.

I'll provide the rest of my arguments in rebuttal form against some of the other arguments in additional posts as its easier to make point against some context. Bear with me.
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post #53 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 07:10 PM
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Please do.
Goddammit I knew someone was going to do it haha.
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post #54 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by VULGR View Post
Even with a late apex that requires a tighter tip in the rider is still braking AFTER they tip in, the rider continues to brake all of the way until the APEX, that makes the apex the SLOWEST point. It doesn't matter if it is an early, mid or late apex, the rider is braking until the apex.
This does not apply to amateurs and everyone that has done one track day but all of the pro's and fastest guys are doing this
They can most certainly ride that way. But then what is the point? A late apex is designed to take advantage of earlier acceleration. Are you saying every corner is limited to starting acceleration at the apex? Or even braking up to the apex? Consider a turn where an early apex might net a faster lap time. Long straight into a corner that doesn't exit into anything significant. You are using all your available traction with a combination of braking and turning. If you let off the brake at the apex, you will be carrying too much speed to make the turn. You have to continue braking after the apex in order to slow down enough to make that turn. The end result? The slowest point would be AFTER the apex.
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post #55 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 07:29 PM
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CKwik, I absolutely get what you're saying. You can turn sharply before the apex, and get on the throttle as your line flattens out, putting the closest point of the turn (the apex) at somewhere other than the slowest point of the turn.

Initially I took critique with you saying the apex does not move. I believe it does.

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post #56 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Petrolsexual View Post
I'm really relieved that other people understand this as well. Cwik's entire argument is based off a couple cartoon's made in paint by some random person on the internet that he is presenting as if it were absolute truth, when the drawings are just flat wrong (at least for a motorcycle). For a "normal" corner that is ridden properly the beginning of the corner will not be the tightest part of the turn. If someone went out on a motorcycle and actually tried to accomplish that they would see how ridiculous you have to ride to do it.
I chose that photo because it clearly showed the area of tighter radius. It was designed to illustrate my point. Take a look at the photos commiehunter posted above. The tightest part of the turn still occurs well before the apex in both scenarios. Hell, pick a photo of an early apex line for me. I'd be happy to create a similar diagram out of it.

So how is your argument any better than my supposedly flawed argument? You haven't provided anything material to this argument that proves what you are saying is true. Attacking my character doesn't prove your case. But hell, you don't know me. Why should you find any credibility in what I say? But how about this guy?

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/201...nding-an-apex/

Here's the relevant part:

Quote:
Good drive is the top priority

The first priority that should be considered when establishing your corner strategy is the length and speed of the straightaway that follows the corner. The reason that this takes priority over the entrance is that an important straight can be 2500+ feet long.

Starting a long straight with a 5mph head start will help you ride faster for 2500 feet. Most braking zones comprise, at most, the final 20% of the straight. It only stands to reason that it does not make sense to gain 5mph on the entrance if it means sacrificing 5mph on the way out (when you are covering 5 times the ground).

In order to get a good drive off of a corner, your bike needs to get upright as soon as possible. The more horsepower you have, the more important this principle becomes. The entrance trajectory is wider and there is an area just prior to the apex where this line tightens up, signifying a defined turn in point before the apex.

This extra turning requires the sacrifice of some entrance speed, but the reward is that the motorcycle is much more upright at the apex. This allows the throttle to be opened before the apex and the motorcycle gets to full throttle much sooner than when the rider uses a roll speed focused approach. This exit focused corner strategy is what is often referred to as the "classic" racing line.
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post #57 of 72 Old 11-25-2015, 08:17 PM
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@CKwik240 actually go to a trackday and you might actually understand. There are a lot of people here who enjoy reading @Painfullyslo 's threads and you are just threadshitting at this point
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post #58 of 72 Old 02-18-2016, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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BUMP for the start of track season =) Unless you are in a place where you can ride track already, or all year...in which case you have earned my dislike :-p
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post #59 of 72 Old 02-26-2017, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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Time for the 2017 BUMP as for me, the track season is right around the corner.
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post #60 of 72 Old 02-26-2017, 07:24 PM
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please start a podcast!

please

please

please!
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