Mad Scientist Moto - prototype for new levers and looking for feedback - Page 2 - ZX6R Forum
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post #16 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 02:49 PM
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Nice !!! I'll buy !! Work on price and you have a buyer .. Maybe 150$$
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post #17 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 03:15 PM
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Here I was hoping to get a set of the levers you have for sale now, and then you spring this on us. They look good. I am not sure how the grip will feel, but those bad boys look good. If you do make them and start selling, when do you think you will have them ready to ship. You showed everyone the goods, but left us hanging without a date.

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post #18 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Now, the questions that I have for you all:
  1. Long or Short lever? - Right now I can only afford to make one of these. I am leaning towards the long lever since they offer better feel and feedback. The main drawback of longer levers is they are vulnerable in a crash which the folding aspect negates. My concern is that generally speaking, people want the 'cool' factor of having shorties. Which would you prefer?
  2. Color? - Right now, my plan is to make only black levers with the adjusters able to be colored just like all of my other levers (Black, Blue, Gold, Green, Silver, Orange, Red). Would the lack of color options on the lever deter you from buying? FYI 72% of all my current lever sales are black levers.
  3. Missing features? - Is there anything that you would like to see included in the design?
  4. Given the list of features and the product in general, would you buy these at $180?
  5. Would you choose these levers over any other brand? Why? Why not?
  6. General comments? - ANY feedback is welcome, both positive and negative.

1. Personally I wish someone would make levers that are in between the typical long and short. Basically, I would want something that's just a bit shorter than the stock, just enough to prevent them from braking in a crash, but not as short as the typical shorties. Those seem too awkward for me. Granted, I did just buy a set of shorty CRG levers (used) just to try them out and see if I like them. I haven't put them on yet, but the shorty ASV levers that a buddy of mine has on his CBR just feel way too short for me. I'm not used to clutching with 2 fingers only and you pretty much have to do that with the short levers.

2. I think your color options are great. You can't go wrong with black, so that's always a good place to start. Of course, the color comes from the dye used in the anodize process, so making a bunch of colors should be easy and relatively cheap (depending on demand).

3. If you could include a feature that makes me a couple of seconds faster, that would be great, and I'd even pay more than your price! ....kidding, but I think you got it all covered. If anything, I would probably remove the cutout you have for "aerodynamics" since I would bet on anything that it doesn't make a damn difference, so you might as well save yourself a few bucks in machining.

4. I must be behind on pricing. I thought most brands were around $160-180. I seem to recall getting a set of Pazzo's for my old Ducati for $160 brand new. But that was 4 years ago so maybe prices have gone up. It's been a while since I've checked, since I typically go to ebay and forums and shop for used (but in great shape) parts when it comes to that sort of parts.

5. Going off #4...in this case I would say if I have to buy a new set of levers now, I would go with yours simply for the fact of supporting a fellow member and racer, rather than buying from a completely unknown source. The price would not be a factor since it would be pretty similar to other brands.

6. I'm not sold on the blasted grippier surface on the levers. I've never had a time when my fingers slipped and I thought "Damn, I wish these levers were grippier!" For me, the length, adjustability, and foldability are the biggest things.

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post #19 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZRJo View Post
I like this a lot, but the price is just a small bit too high. As you already know, I'm in love with the idea of getting levers for my RCS19 from you for three reasons. I'm supporting a rider and zx6r community member, they are fantastic quality and they are under the cost of buying an assembly directly from Brembo. The Brembo RCS19 folding lever full assembly is $180. I would definitely buy them from you rather than Brembo for the $180, but others may take more convincing. If you could get your price down $20, I know I could get others that race CCS midwest to buy them from you, as many of us run the RCS19. It may also be advantageous to look into replacements for the Accasato brake master and the other Brembos (think 19x18). Now, to answer your actual questions:

1. Long, no questions asked.

2. Black/Red/White (My Race Colors )

3. Possibly doing something similar to the Brembo "low-drag" lever variant. It has a section machined out of the end of the lever. This looks cool, will probably (albeit only slightly) reduce your costs per lever and it supposedly helps take pressure off the lever when at high speeds. I don't see the last claim being all that useful in general, especially at our level, but the other bits I stand behind.

4. Yes, but it's not a no-brainer yes.

5. As mentioned above, this is a toss-up. As for me, I would because I know you to at least some extent. The problem is that the cost is the same as a lever assembly from Brembo. Even if you use higher quality parts in some areas, you still aren't Brembo and, when the price is equal, many won't take the risk on an unknown product/brand.

6. Took care of most of this above, but I also have some positive comments. I'm really excited about the extra grip area especially for the wet. I wish my brembo branded folding levers had this. I also really appreciate that you're donating to the action fund and would also suggest throwing the red flag fund in the mix. Both are very worthwhile charities to our sport.


EDIT::::

Holy hell. I just realized that you said this would be $180 per SET and not for EACH LEVER. In that case, holy hell, this is DEFINITELY a no-brainer yes. Can I get two brake sides in a pack instead of brake and clutch?
Haha, yes, per SET. Thanks for the feedback, I do really appreciate it. I don't see a reason why you couldn't get two brake levers. Basically it really comes down to $90/lever as I will be selling them individually as well. My main competition is ASV/CRG which are about $220/set. I am trying to keep it under theirs by a decent enough margin that people will be willing to take a chance on a lesser known name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russperry View Post
I'm a fan of the adjustable length levers. Just got a pair including the folding feature for my Kawi and have settled on different lengths - shorty on the brake, about mid-range on the clutch. Its probably a factor of pull effort, strength between hands, etc... but its nice to have the adjustability. If all your features would work with that I'd suggest you consider starting there.
I appreciate the feedback. I hadn't really considered going with adjustable levers as I find that the extra moving parts just make me feel like it would be more prone to failure.

Probably untrue but I can't help shake the feeling. Still, I will catalog that away and if I get enough interest in them I am sure that I can put something together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbwarthen03 View Post
The levers are sick! Pretty cool, I agree that you gotta find just the right material for the grippy area, don't wanna shorten the life of the fingers on the gloves either! But anyways on a side note, any plans for MSM adding an oil filler plug to the hardware?
Yep, for sure. Spending hours with testing on the right grip level. I am bringing 8 different sets of levers to the track with me in 2 weeks specifically to test them out in racing conditions and find out which I prefer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman123 View Post
I'm 100% on this guy's boat.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 636rida06 View Post
Nice !!! I'll buy !! Work on price and you have a buyer .. Maybe 150$$
Noted. I am not sure if I will be able to come in at that price but we will see. I am still waiting on final quotes from the anodizer and laser etching process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
1. Personally I wish someone would make levers that are in between the typical long and short. Basically, I would want something that's just a bit shorter than the stock, just enough to prevent them from braking in a crash, but not as short as the typical shorties. Those seem too awkward for me. Granted, I did just buy a set of shorty CRG levers (used) just to try them out and see if I like them. I haven't put them on yet, but the shorty ASV levers that a buddy of mine has on his CBR just feel way too short for me. I'm not used to clutching with 2 fingers only and you pretty much have to do that with the short levers.

2. I think your color options are great. You can't go wrong with black, so that's always a good place to start. Of course, the color comes from the dye used in the anodize process, so making a bunch of colors should be easy and relatively cheap (depending on demand).

3. If you could include a feature that makes me a couple of seconds faster, that would be great, and I'd even pay more than your price! ....kidding, but I think you got it all covered. If anything, I would probably remove the cutout you have for "aerodynamics" since I would bet on anything that it doesn't make a damn difference, so you might as well save yourself a few bucks in machining.

4. I must be behind on pricing. I thought most brands were around $160-180. I seem to recall getting a set of Pazzo's for my old Ducati for $160 brand new. But that was 4 years ago so maybe prices have gone up. It's been a while since I've checked, since I typically go to ebay and forums and shop for used (but in great shape) parts when it comes to that sort of parts.

5. Going off #4...in this case I would say if I have to buy a new set of levers now, I would go with yours simply for the fact of supporting a fellow member and racer, rather than buying from a completely unknown source. The price would not be a factor since it would be pretty similar to other brands.

6. I'm not sold on the blasted grippier surface on the levers. I've never had a time when my fingers slipped and I thought "Damn, I wish these levers were grippier!" For me, the length, adjustability, and foldability are the biggest things.
Appreciate the feedback. It seems there is another vote for an adjustable lever length although to be honest, the entire point of the folding feature is to allow the use of longer levers while simultaneously reducing the risk of breakage in a crash.

For the colors, they are all easy enough to do. It is more a cash flow decision at this point. This is costing me many thousands of dollars on a hunch that these will sell. I simply cannot afford to anodize a bunch of levers that will sit on the shelf for a year or more. If the first batch flies off of the shelves then I will have a little more freedom to experiment with options.

For your #3, every purchase will come with a free 2.37 second picture analysis by me. Actually, in all seriousness, for almost any rider I can gain them time just by looking at a couple of pictures and a short discussion. Just post up your questions and I will do what I can to help...that is free even if you don't buy my levers =)

Out of curiosity, were your pazzo levers folding? That is where most of the money comes into play. I have done a fair amount of research and 'comparably' setup levers come in at that $220 mark pretty consistently.

I also appreciate the feedback on the grip surface. I think as I move forward with this I will offer it as an option. There HAVE been times where I wish I had more grip on my levers...usually in the wet but the main thing that I am looking for out of these is feedback. When you pull on a lever, your fingers do move around on them a little bit which takes away from your feel. I am actually pretty excited to test this out at the track in a few weeks.
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post #20 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbwarthen03 View Post
The levers are sick! Pretty cool, I agree that you gotta find just the right material for the grippy area, don't wanna shorten the life of the fingers on the gloves either! But anyways on a side note, any plans for MSM adding an oil filler plug to the hardware?
FYI Titanium pre-drilled oil drain pan bolts are in the works =)
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post #21 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 06:08 PM
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FYI Titanium pre-drilled oil drain pan bolts are in the works =)
Awesome! For just the pan or fill cap too?
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post #22 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 06:20 PM
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out of curiousity, is the laser etching needed? is there sny other way to brand them maybe?
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post #23 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 06:20 PM
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I just bought Pazzo levers and might have to jump on these. Nice job!


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post #24 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Appreciate the feedback. It seems there is another vote for an adjustable lever length although to be honest, the entire point of the folding feature is to allow the use of longer levers while simultaneously reducing the risk of breakage in a crash.
True. I've never actually used foldable levers, but I liked the idea of the design. They would still get ground up a bit on the ends, but at least they wouldn't break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Out of curiosity, were your pazzo levers folding? That is where most of the money comes into play. I have done a fair amount of research and 'comparably' setup levers come in at that $220 mark pretty consistently.
No they weren't. And you're right about that price. I just looked up CRG levers on STG's site and only saw them sold individually, cheapest being $115 for foldable ones (per lever), and even the non-foldable ones were $100/lever. I guess prices have gone up in the last few years. Makes your price seem a bit better now for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
I also appreciate the feedback on the grip surface. I think as I move forward with this I will offer it as an option. There HAVE been times where I wish I had more grip on my levers...usually in the wet but the main thing that I am looking for out of these is feedback. When you pull on a lever, your fingers do move around on them a little bit which takes away from your feel. I am actually pretty excited to test this out at the track in a few weeks.
I couldn't be wrong about this, but when you're blipping the throttle to downshift when you're hard on the brakes, don't you want your braking fingers to slide on the lever a bit? Otherwise if they don't, as you're blipping the throttle you would all of a sudden put more pressure on the brake lever if your fingers don't slide. At least that's how the method has been explained to me by others....I'm terrible at blipping when I'm on the brakes. Have never been able to really get the technique down, but I've also spoiled myself with slipper clutches so I took out the need for blipping.

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post #25 of 95 Old 04-11-2016, 08:07 PM
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To the OP....with the whole long vs shorty debate why not do something like the picture I attached? I actually have these on my bike and I love the adjustability they have. Just a thought.
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post #26 of 95 Old 04-12-2016, 05:43 AM
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You know what OP.. I'm going to help you out. Go ahead and send me a pair of levers and I'll test them out for FREE


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post #27 of 95 Old 04-12-2016, 05:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbwarthen03 View Post
Awesome! For just the pan or fill cap too?
Right now, just the drain plug bolts but I will see about a run of oil fill caps as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brevillance View Post
out of curiousity, is the laser etching needed? is there sny other way to brand them maybe?
Well, I do need to brand my levers. Did you have any other idea on how to do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlsracer View Post
I just bought Pazzo levers and might have to jump on these. Nice job!


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Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
True. I've never actually used foldable levers, but I liked the idea of the design. They would still get ground up a bit on the ends, but at least they wouldn't break.



No they weren't. And you're right about that price. I just looked up CRG levers on STG's site and only saw them sold individually, cheapest being $115 for foldable ones (per lever), and even the non-foldable ones were $100/lever. I guess prices have gone up in the last few years. Makes your price seem a bit better now for sure.



I couldn't be wrong about this, but when you're blipping the throttle to downshift when you're hard on the brakes, don't you want your braking fingers to slide on the lever a bit? Otherwise if they don't, as you're blipping the throttle you would all of a sudden put more pressure on the brake lever if your fingers don't slide. At least that's how the method has been explained to me by others....I'm terrible at blipping when I'm on the brakes. Have never been able to really get the technique down, but I've also spoiled myself with slipper clutches so I took out the need for blipping.
As to the throttle blip, again this all comes down to finding that perfect texture, increased grip, not absolutely unmovable grip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSneekey6R View Post
To the OP....with the whole long vs shorty debate why not do something like the picture I attached? I actually have these on my bike and I love the adjustability they have. Just a thought.
I have seen those and it just isn't something that comes in at the top of my priority list right now. Perhaps after I get some of these rolling I can take a better look at producing something like that but for the vast majority, it is either long or short and not in between.
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post #28 of 95 Old 04-12-2016, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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So let me ask you all this:

The grip area seems to be a concern for many of you. Would you still consider purchasing these without it?

There is a significant cost associated with doing that so I may be able to offer these without that grip area for a little bit less money.
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post #29 of 95 Old 04-12-2016, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
So let me ask you all this:

The grip area seems to be a concern for many of you. Would you still consider purchasing these without it?

There is a significant cost associated with doing that so I may be able to offer these without that grip area for a little bit less money.
I am very, very interested in the grip area. Hell, I was fantasizing the idea of that area being anodized a different color, even if that's unrealistic. This, for me, is a selling point.

Also, I still want to know what you think about doing a low drag style cutout.

Last edited by ZZRJo; 04-12-2016 at 08:57 AM.
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post #30 of 95 Old 04-12-2016, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZRJo View Post
I am very, very interested in the grip area. Hell, I was fantasizing the idea of that area being anodized a different color, even if that's unrealistic. This, for me, is a selling point.

Also, I still want to know what you think about doing a low drag style cutout.
There is the potential for a redesign in the low-drag area. Something I have been considering but for the immediate future I will run with what I have.

I really want to "skeletonize" the lever. Make it as small/thin as possible without compromising structural integrity. It is on the drawing board.
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