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post #46 of 115 Old 07-07-2016, 08:24 AM
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Slo or PG or TDH or whoever else who have been doing this ALOT longer than me, I would love if you have any advice or tips for me.


Here's a little video from VIR NORTH course this past Saturday. I have only been in intermediate group for 2 track days but definitely seeing the benefits of riding with faster riders and pretty much getting a tow all day long. I have shaved 11 seconds off my personal best time (which is still slow) since being in I group. on this particular day I found an additional 2.5 seconds

This is 5 laps. the last 4 laps or so was fun. Chasing a guy that I couldn't seem to get around. I was on my SV so I lost a lot in the straights but was fun trying to play catch up. I showed him a wheel twice, thinking he would let me get around since its just a track day and not a race but he was making me work for it haha


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUJjP_hKPDM






this is just a compilation I made. I am horrible at editing but I started the video with one clean lap. I thought this was my personal best lap but I grabbed the wrong one. oh well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpiwWjuDG-w





as always any critique is welcome. I know there are lots and lots of things I need to work on. One thing you will see on these videos is that I wasn't using all of the track. I did a lot of that on purpose. I have been working on being off line. I learned that I had no idea what to do to if someone was on my line and I wanted to get around. I also know that I need to stop using the clutch to shift on straight but its a hard habit to break but I am working on it.


THANKS!
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post #47 of 115 Old 07-07-2016, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spiderman636 View Post
Slo or PG or TDH or whoever else who have been doing this ALOT longer than me, I would love if you have any advice or tips for me.


Here's a little video from VIR NORTH course this past Saturday. I have only been in intermediate group for 2 track days but definitely seeing the benefits of riding with faster riders and pretty much getting a tow all day long. I have shaved 11 seconds off my personal best time (which is still slow) since being in I group. on this particular day I found an additional 2.5 seconds

This is 5 laps. the last 4 laps or so was fun. Chasing a guy that I couldn't seem to get around. I was on my SV so I lost a lot in the straights but was fun trying to play catch up. I showed him a wheel twice, thinking he would let me get around since its just a track day and not a race but he was making me work for it haha


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUJjP_hKPDM






this is just a compilation I made. I am horrible at editing but I started the video with one clean lap. I thought this was my personal best lap but I grabbed the wrong one. oh well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpiwWjuDG-w





as always any critique is welcome. I know there are lots and lots of things I need to work on. One thing you will see on these videos is that I wasn't using all of the track. I did a lot of that on purpose. I have been working on being off line. I learned that I had no idea what to do to if someone was on my line and I wanted to get around. I also know that I need to stop using the clutch to shift on straight but its a hard habit to break but I am working on it.


THANKS!
There are a few things that immediately become apparent, some of which you mentioned but since I have not seen a 'good' lap, I am going to bring it up anyway so forgive me if this seems overly critical. It is solely in the interest of your improvement.

1) Shifting. Since you are listing your lap times I am assuming that it is your goal to be faster. Every time you pull that clutch lever in, it costs you at least .1 second. Add that up for a single lap and you just shaved 1.5 seconds off of your lap time, at a minimum at no cost to yourself. More importantly, there are a few turns where you are upshifting while leaned over which drastically upsets your chassis as you unload and reload your suspension. It may not be a problem now but as your pace quickens (and your lean angles become more extreme) it will cause crashes. Learn to do clutchless upshifts and you will not only be faster, but safer.

2) line selection. As you said you were specifically not using all of the race track, which is all well and good however you were at best several feet off of the apexes. The north VIR course is 2.25 miles but I would bet that you are actually riding 2.35+ miles. Learn to become comfortable with putting your tire right at the apex. In most cases this means putting your knee on or over the rumble strips. Start slowly and gradually progress as this can cause a fair amount of panic in the beginning. Logically, you know that if your knee is on the curb your tire must be at least 2' further outside so you are safe. Keep that in mind as you practice this.

2A) line selection, continued. Know your plan. What is the goal of each turn you are entering? Most of VIR is what we call "roll speed focused" meaning that you want to simply go through it as fast as possible which generally requires the classic "outside-inside-outside" line. Some turns are drive focused, and others are entry focused. Learn the differences and make sure that your line is designed to get you through that turn the fastest way possible. Oh, and make sure you use all the racetrack :-p I know you mentioned this however it has been my experience that people which are a little apprehensive about hitting a tight apex are also apprehensive about putting a tire near the outside edge of the track. Again, work slowly at this so that you do not cause panic.

3) Braking. If you really want to make time, you need to learn to trust and use your brakes to greater effect. Again, this is something that can cause some panic so go at it slowly. Basically, you are braking too soon and not as hard as you could be. There is a TON of time in this.

4) On throttle transitions. You are a bit late getting back on the gas after each apex, and it seems that you are doing a gradual roll-on. Follow the #1 rule of drives - Gas on, Bike up. Meaning that you stand the bike up as you feed throttle. On the SV, that throttle is basically an on-off switch and does not require much modulation, especially on a flowing track like VIR.

All of this assumes that you are on quality rubber that is up to temp and that you are not doing anything horribly wrong with your body position to create any artificial ceilings for your traction.
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post #48 of 115 Old 07-07-2016, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
There are a few things that immediately become apparent, some of which you mentioned but since I have not seen a 'good' lap, I am going to bring it up anyway so forgive me if this seems overly critical. It is solely in the interest of your improvement.

1) Shifting. Since you are listing your lap times I am assuming that it is your goal to be faster. Every time you pull that clutch lever in, it costs you at least .1 second. Add that up for a single lap and you just shaved 1.5 seconds off of your lap time, at a minimum at no cost to yourself. More importantly, there are a few turns where you are upshifting while leaned over which drastically upsets your chassis as you unload and reload your suspension. It may not be a problem now but as your pace quickens (and your lean angles become more extreme) it will cause crashes. Learn to do clutchless upshifts and you will not only be faster, but safer.

2) line selection. As you said you were specifically not using all of the race track, which is all well and good however you were at best several feet off of the apexes. The north VIR course is 2.25 miles but I would bet that you are actually riding 2.35+ miles. Learn to become comfortable with putting your tire right at the apex. In most cases this means putting your knee on or over the rumble strips. Start slowly and gradually progress as this can cause a fair amount of panic in the beginning. Logically, you know that if your knee is on the curb your tire must be at least 2' further outside so you are safe. Keep that in mind as you practice this.

2A) line selection, continued. Know your plan. What is the goal of each turn you are entering? Most of VIR is what we call "roll speed focused" meaning that you want to simply go through it as fast as possible which generally requires the classic "outside-inside-outside" line. Some turns are drive focused, and others are entry focused. Learn the differences and make sure that your line is designed to get you through that turn the fastest way possible. Oh, and make sure you use all the racetrack :-p I know you mentioned this however it has been my experience that people which are a little apprehensive about hitting a tight apex are also apprehensive about putting a tire near the outside edge of the track. Again, work slowly at this so that you do not cause panic.

3) Braking. If you really want to make time, you need to learn to trust and use your brakes to greater effect. Again, this is something that can cause some panic so go at it slowly. Basically, you are braking too soon and not as hard as you could be. There is a TON of time in this.

4) On throttle transitions. You are a bit late getting back on the gas after each apex, and it seems that you are doing a gradual roll-on. Follow the #1 rule of drives - Gas on, Bike up. Meaning that you stand the bike up as you feed throttle. On the SV, that throttle is basically an on-off switch and does not require much modulation, especially on a flowing track like VIR.

All of this assumes that you are on quality rubber that is up to temp and that you are not doing anything horribly wrong with your body position to create any artificial ceilings for your traction.
SLO,
thank you so much! this is extremely helpful. I am actually going to print this. You help is much appreciated. Absolutely not overly critical at all. I appreciate critique even if its harsh because I know in the end it helps me become faster and safer.

even on a "good lap" I can say that I know I am not using all of the track. Never occurred to be that I may be riding further than 2.25 miles.

brakes. My SV brakes suck! I am actually swapping the MC and lines this week before I go to Road Atlanta next week to see if that helps. I sent you a PM awhile back about this but my lever gets REALLY soft as the day goes on. Almost lever to bar.

Anyway, thanks again. I will look to try a lot of these things next week even though I will be at a different track that's new to me..

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow! What a Ride! ~Hunter S. Thompson

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post #49 of 115 Old 07-07-2016, 11:55 AM
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If you are looking for turn points, I like to review this vid before I go to VIR north. I was planning to go that weekend, but family issues took precedent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P66mn70S2M0

Listen when they get back on the gas, it's pretty early.

Your a brave man trying to outbrake those 600s with stock SV brakes. I put SS lines on mine with Versa pads and they were still nothing compared to my ZX6R. The good thing about the SV is there is a fair amount of engine braking and with less speed down the straight, makes it acceptable.



And yep PS doesn't do anything halfway.......
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post #50 of 115 Old 07-07-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Off Camber View Post
If you are looking for turn points, I like to review this vid before I go to VIR north. I was planning to go that weekend, but family issues took precedent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P66mn70S2M0

Listen when they get back on the gas, it's pretty early.

Your a brave man trying to outbrake those 600s with stock SV brakes. I put SS lines on mine with Versa pads and they were still nothing compared to my ZX6R. The good thing about the SV is there is a fair amount of engine braking and with less speed down the straight, makes it acceptable.



And yep PS doesn't do anything halfway.......
Thanks OC. I will def save that video as well. This is the one I like to watch before going there. He takes a very different line through turn 1 but besides that I think its pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhitl4Yswbo
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post #51 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 01:24 AM
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I'm hitting a wall here with body positioning.

Look at the photo. I have my heels solidly planted onto the peg while the inside leg is far out as it can, at least that's what it feels like. I have short legs so my ass is as far back as possible on the seat and the legs are hooked onto the side of the seat instead of the tank.

I'm scraping toes instead of knee. Is this it for me?
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post #52 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by atatata View Post
I'm hitting a wall here with body positioning.

Look at the photo. I have my heels solidly planted onto the peg while the inside leg is far out as it can, at least that's what it feels like. I have short legs so my ass is as far back as possible on the seat and the legs are hooked onto the side of the seat instead of the tank.

I'm scraping toes instead of knee. Is this it for me?
Your heels shouldn't be planted on pegs. Your toes should be on the pegs.

Also, rear sets should help if you don't already have them.
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post #53 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 12:34 PM
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At my last track day I noticed that I'm putting a lot of pressure on my inside bar while corning. I kinda feels like I'm pulling myself "off" the bike with my inside hand and foot to get off the side more. How can I get off the side of the bike without placing so much weight on my inside bar?
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post #54 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 12:37 PM
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At my last track day I noticed that I'm putting a lot of pressure on my inside bar while corning. I kinda feels like I'm pulling myself "off" the bike with my inside hand and foot to get off the side more. How can I get off the side of the bike without placing so much weight on my inside bar?
I cant offer much help, especially not as much as Slo can but just a follow up question that I think would be helpful information to have when answering this.... How early are you setting up for the corner? Are you already off to the side of the bike well before you actually turn in?

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow! What a Ride! ~Hunter S. Thompson

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post #55 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 01:33 PM
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I set up for the corner just before I start braking. I've been looking at the photos from the track and brain storming. I think I'm keeping my upper body to high up, forcing my wrist to carry a lot of my weight. I think I need to get my chest and outside arm on top of the tank when want to hang off the bike. I'm 100% sure and I don't want to teach myself bad habits.

If it helps any here's a couple photos



Last edited by Elwood; 07-08-2016 at 02:44 PM.
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post #56 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atatata View Post
I'm hitting a wall here with body positioning.

Look at the photo. I have my heels solidly planted onto the peg while the inside leg is far out as it can, at least that's what it feels like. I have short legs so my ass is as far back as possible on the seat and the legs are hooked onto the side of the seat instead of the tank.

I'm scraping toes instead of knee. Is this it for me?
You definitely need to take a look at your basic stance on the bike. As Spider mentioned, you need the balls of your feet on the pegs, not the heels. This allows you to raise your outside knee up into the tank and will allow you more room to pivot your inside knee outwards.

This:


Not this:


Also, you should not be as far back into the seat as possible...on corner entry you want your weight low and forward so you should be about a fists width off of the gas tank.

You should really spend some time going over the basics. Are you riding the track? If so, do they have instructors/control riders or body positioning seminars in your area? I think these would be of a huge benefit to you until you get nail those basics down.

Last edited by PainfullySlo; 07-08-2016 at 02:13 PM.
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post #57 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood View Post
At my last track day I noticed that I'm putting a lot of pressure on my inside bar while corning. I kinda feels like I'm pulling myself "off" the bike with my inside hand and foot to get off the side more. How can I get off the side of the bike without placing so much weight on my inside bar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwood View Post
I set up for the corner just before I start braking. I've been looking at the photos from the track and brain storming. I think I'm keeping my upper body to high up, forcing my wrist to carry a lot of my weight. I think I need to get my chest and outside arm on top of the tank when want to hang off the bike. I'm 100% sure and I'd to teach myself bad habits.

If it helps any here's a couple photos


Putting pressure on the inside bar is a clear indicator that you are not locked into position on the bike.

Your outside knee should be firmly driven into the side of the gas tank...that alone should be enough that you could hang off of the bike without using ANY bar pressure at all. The goal is to carry your entire weight with your legs and core. Practice this on stands. Your inner leg/bent knee will help to support the rest of your weight and your core muscles keep your upper body mass from coming down on your hands.

You are also pretty seriously crossed up and carrying a lot of tension in your upper body. Your spine needs to be straight so right now your butt is much further off the bike than your head. You have to do things in order or it won't work for you so here is a quick 3 step program to follow. Learn these things in order.

1) carry weight with your legs/core only as described above
2) once that is done, you can relax your inner arm
3) that will allow your head to drop and get in line with the rest of your body

There are no shortcuts to this, and riding well is hard. It takes a lot of muscle control to support your body weight without using your hands...practice this lots and I promise you it will pay off.
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Last edited by PainfullySlo; 07-08-2016 at 02:10 PM.
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post #58 of 115 Old 07-08-2016, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PainfullySlo View Post
Putting pressure on the inside bar is a clear indicator that you are not locked into position on the bike.

Your outside knee should be firmly driven into the side of the gas tank...that alone should be enough that you could hang off of the bike without using ANY bar pressure at all. The goal is to carry your entire weight with your legs and core. Practice this on stands. Your inner leg/bent knee will help to support the rest of your weight and your core muscles keep your upper body mass from coming down on your hands.

You are also pretty seriously crossed up and carrying a lot of tension in your upper body. Your spine needs to be straight so right now your butt is much further off the bike than your head. You have to do things in order or it won't work for you so here is a quick 3 step program to follow. Learn these things in order.

1) carry weight with your legs/core only as described above
2) once that is done, you can relax your inner arm
3) that will allow your head to drop and get in line with the rest of your body

There are no shortcuts to this, and riding well is hard. It takes a lot of muscle control to support your body weight without using your hands...practice this lots and I promise you it will pay off.
Thanks for the advice! Much more helpful than I could have asked for. I just want to keep moving in the right direction
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post #59 of 115 Old 07-09-2016, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elwood View Post
Thanks for the advice! Much more helpful than I could have asked for. I just want to keep moving in the right direction
No problem, bud. We all do! Glad that I could offer some help.

Remember, practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice does. You will likely have to go slower until you make that new position part of your routine. Invest the time to do this and it will pay big dividends down the road.
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post #60 of 115 Old 07-14-2016, 08:05 AM
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very helpful thread, thanks

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