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Cornering left, cornering right

4K views 39 replies 14 participants last post by  RJ2112 
#1 ·
I am new to riding. Took my course in the summer, immediately got my M1. Bought a GS500, and just got a 2012 zx6r with about 1500 miles on it.

Can anyone give me any help. I feel like i can lean and corner to my left with out great fear. When i corner right, it is far more difficult. Im not sure if its because the throttle is on my right side or what. I have a general fear of going down when i corner. Wondering how far i can lean. Im sorry if i sound like a beeyah. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
It just takes practice. It's normal to feel more comfortable leaning on one side more than the other. In all the MSF classes I teach, I always ask students that about half way through and everyone usually has a preference. I rarely get someone that says they feel the same way leaning both directions. I prefer left as well...that doesn't mean I can't corner on the right side though ;)

It can also change, because a lot of it is a mental block. I used to be more comfortable with left turns, then I crashed in a left turn and then I was more comfortable with right turns, and after a couple of years I started being more comfortable with left turns again.
 
#23 · (Edited)
My man, SBK is mostly correct. This is common for neophyte U.S. riders; I've read in U.K. mags that their novice riders querry the same question, but on the opposite grip, remember they ride on the left. As others have commented: 'it just takes saddle time.'

A big part has to do with 2-Ps: Posture & Pressure. You are essentially 'laying on your wrists.' This has been discussed elsewhere on the Forum. I would wager your crotch is firmly against the tank; your feet are on the pegs, but chances are your weight is somewhere in the arch area; and a side view of your riding posture would reveal the 'Lion's share' of your weight is actually on your hands/wrists, and your spine is arcing.

The proper setup ought to have the vast majority of your weight on the balls of your feet (as much or even more than on your bum). Scoot your butt back, there should be ≥ 2" between you and the tank ; I know, it sounds counter-intuitive - this will keep your back from 'humping' upwards. Your back ought to be in a straight diagonal line. This fundamentally requires a strong core. If one ever needed to perform stomach crunches - this ought to be all the motivation one requires.

By placing so much of your weight on your wrists, you are effectively reducing blood flow to your hands. This lack of blood will result in a lack of small muscle control - making your inputs jurky & abrupt. This lack of muscular finesse augments unintended throttle input.

Well, how does one know if your hands/feet/butt are in the proper locations? Set you bike upon work stands or work station that has a bolted down wheel chock. Get up on the saddle and get in a 'normal' riding position - not a full tuck.

Perform usual hand/feet locating; now... without any other fidddling take both hands off of the clip-ons. If your chin bounces off the gas tank, you are not doing it correctly. Again, hold your position by focusing your weight on the balls of your feet. Don't cross your arms, don't place palms on thighs. Keep your back straight; you should be able to place at least 2 fingers between the tank and your jewels.

The good news is if one could do the above successfully, you're paying attention; the bad news is one has to have the core and leg strength to do this for hours. Good luck.

P.S., consciously keep your shoulders realaxed. At traffic control situations or any other acceptable situations roll your shoulder blades.
 
#4 ·
I'm much more comfortable with right hand curves than left. For me its because of taking a curve out-in-out. on the right side when I'm in, I'm near the edge of the road and there is much less of a chance that something is going to come into my line. On a left curve however, when I'm in there is the chance of a car crossing the center line and clipping me, plus I'm like a dog when it comes to being distracted easily. If a car does come up while I'm making a left and occasionally when I'm making a right, Ill immediately look at it to see what make and model it is; its something I've done since I was a child.

Something that has helped me a lot was watching Twist of the wrist on youtube over and over. I always pick up on something new and realize something I'm doing wrong that I need to train myself to stop doing. My biggest problem was not rolling on the throttle and trying to stay neutral through the curve which i felt made me tend to run wide. Now that I've realized this and actively tell myself to start rolling on the throttle i can feel the bike pull through the curves much better and the bike doesn't feel like its on ice anymore. Its amazing how much better things feel once you get better throttle control. That and looking where you want to go. I'm sure you've been told about target fixation before, but when you really realize how much smoother your turning becomes once you look further into the curve than right in-front it'll feel like a mini epiphany.

Im not going balls to the wall in the rain, but It amazes me how much quicker i can take a curve in the rain when i roll the throttle than when I don't. That and remembering to lean into the turn and forward. If i don't lean forward then my inside arm tends to stiffen up and keeps the front from falling in line of the curve.

All the best man, hope some of this helps you, and if any of what I've said is wrong/bad, please let me know so I don't continue to do dumb things
 
#5 · (Edited)
I am new to riding. Took my course in the summer, immediately got my M1. Bought a GS500, and just got a 2012 zx6r with about 1500 miles on it.

Can anyone give me any help. I feel like i can lean and corner to my left with out great fear. When i corner right, it is far more difficult. Im not sure if its because the throttle is on my right side or what. I have a general fear of going down when i corner. Wondering how far i can lean. Im sorry if i sound like a beeyah. Thanks.
Thanks. Ya, im just wondering what or when will get me to the point of knowing i wont go down. Or at least how far i can lean with outgoing down.
You probably feel like you are leaning over a lot further than you actually are. Done properly, you can lean over a long way. Your 2012 ZX-6R has some feelers on the bottom of the OEM foot pegs that will let you know when you are getting close to the limit.

Have a buddy follow you and film you as you go through a corner, and you will see just how little you are leaning compared to what it feels like.

As far a right vs left turns, most people prefer one side more than the other, and most of the time it's the left they prefer, because it seems easier to control the throttle when it's on the outside hand.
 
#6 ·
OP,

If you want to know how far the bike can lean...... have someone help you support it, and take it all the way on it's side until something touches (other than the tires). This is not 100% accurate; the weight of the rider will compress the suspension, etc...... but it will show you with a fair degree of accuracy how much past what you think is possible, the bike is capable of.

A street rider will not be able to lean the bike that far and maintain anything like a responsible level of control.

On rare occasion, I would touch down the toe of my boot when I war riding 'duck footed'. Now that I have better discipline with my feet on the pegs, nothing touches down.

Personally, I prefer right turns to left. Seems to me that I do more of them, as the US is a right side driving country. I consider right turns slightly more risky if something goes wrong, as the bike and myself may slide into the oncoming lane.... but I do so many more of them it's more 'natural'.

As you gain confidence you will probably change preference -- as has been said, the best thing you can do is develop those good habits. Look all the way through the turn, learn to carve it as a whole, rather than hack at it in little choppy parts. Smooth and stable is much easier than jerky. Once you get the bike to be stable on the suspension, the steering becomes much more consistent, and that makes your 'lines' cleaner. Up to that point, you are actually doing about 5 different things at the same time, all of which interact and affect where the bike is going.

The more you can get to the point of only doing one thing at a time, the smoother things get. It's fairly simple at that point to adjust your line through the corner just based on your throttle input. If you cut the throttle, the bike will tighten the line. If you add gas, it will start to run wider.
 
#7 ·
The throttle makes right turns a bit tricker for me. I can rotate my left palm on the bar drop my upper body lower and get in a better position than a can with right turns.
In right turns I have a little trouble holding/rolling on the throttle and rotating my palm at the same time.
 
#26 ·
Something you can do to help you with throttle control on your right hand turns is to stick your elbow out further and hold the throttle grip more like you would holds a screwdriver. This makes throttle control in a corner much more precise.
 
#8 ·
How far you can lean over depends on several conditions.
Tires, road conditions, speed, how you apply throttle and brakes.

My street bike is a 07 Triumph Tiger 1050. It's a very tall bike.
Before I did a track day the chicken strip was 1/2-3/4 inch.
After first track day down to 1/4" second day I was hitting the feelers on the foot pegs.
Coach said your leaning to far over because your body postion is way to upright.
I've been fighting many years of street riding learning what good body postition really is.
I think I'm way off the bike, pictures show that's not the case.

IMO, what your trying to do nearly impossible to accomplish safely on the street.
Being able to hit the same corners over and over, knowing the road conditions are good.
Having run off's that allow you to stand the bike up and blow the corner (run off the track) can only be done on the track safely. (no ditch's etc)
If you want to really improve your riding safely and at the same time have more fun then you ever thought possible. Do a track day or better yet several.
You will be able to follow others, watching while learning.
If they can do the corner at this speed so can you, it's convincing your brain you can do it.
First corner you think you can't, when you do and come around again at the same speed your apprehension will be less a couple more times and you KNOW you can and then pick up the speed. This repeats until you know you can do it.
Suggest you read some of our own PainfullySlo's thread. Very good reading.
I've think all are listed in this thread. http://zx6r.com/racing/83010-helpful-links.html
 
#9 · (Edited)
I believe there could be several things that can generate a preference for one direction or the other. You eluded to it with where the throttle is positioned. The controls on a motorcycle are not symmetrical. Throttle on the right, front brake on the right, clutch on the left, shifter on the left, rear brake on the right. All of these things can cause you to control the motorcycle differently through a left hand corner than on a right hand corner. For example, I am a huge believer in the rear brake as an additional control through the corners. Well, unlike in a left hand turn it's pretty much impossible to have your foot on the rear brake when at or near maximum lean when going through a right hander. So, I do control the motorcycle a bit differently through lefts than I do rights. That's why some of the MotoGP guys were looking into thumb levers to control the rear brake (some do use them). I'm too old to learn new tricks though so...

Also, unlike the track, riding on the street right hand corners and left hand corners are different. If you live in countries where you drive on the right side of the road (like in the USA) right hand corners are shorter than left hand corners, so if your experience is on the street that "could" also effect right/left preference. Over your time riding on the street you will have actually traveled farther on left hand corners than right handers so you actually have more experience leaned to the left than the right. It's also why the left side of your tires generally wear out before the right side (in countries that drive on the right side of the road, countries that drive on the left usually have worse right side tire wear due to traveling farther when leaned to the right).

On a track there is no center line that you are not allowed to cross. You are allowed to use the entire track so the distance will be the same (generally) regardless of which direction you take the corner. Of course tracks will have more right handers than left handers depending on whether they run clockwise or counter clockwise so if you don't get your practice on a variety of tracks, you might develop a left/right bias from that experience as well.
 
#10 ·
Drag my left knee but not my right because im a squid POS. I also feel 10x more comfortable with left corners from speed, to lean angle, to how far my body is actually off the bike. On the upside I only have to replace my left knee puck until I get my shit together with right corners:O
 
#11 ·
If I were to guess, I'd bet your problem is you are hanging off the bars in the corner. So, when you are going one way you are supporting your weight with a fixed grip, then you go the other and suddenly that grip isn't so fixed anymore :). Could be any number of things though. As for how far can you lean over without crashing, well that all depends and is something people (including myself) spend a long time trying to understand. You won't be able to just figure that one out in a couple weeks sorry to say.
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the input again, RJ. So youre saying it would be a somewha accurate way of determining how far it could lean. With soneone on it though, would it be able to lean farther or not as much?

Yes, breaking down curves in small choppy parts describes me well right now.
 
#20 ·
It would probably not lean as much, with a rider on it. The weight of the rider will normally compress the suspension some.... that will put the chassis a little closer to the ground, so it would have quite as much clearance. Again, the limit of the bike is so far past what should be happening on the street as to make it a moot point.

you'd have a good idea, but not perfectly accurate. More like a little less than 'holy f*ck!':devilish
 
#14 ·
Was hoping someone would auggest a good video to watch. Thanks.

Look towards the target and throttle.

I like to say im a really good athlete. But im finding out that it has nothing to do with riding a sportsbike. Seems to be knowing what to do.
 
#16 ·
I like to say im a really good athlete. But im finding out that it has nothing to do with riding a sportsbike. Seems to be knowing what to do.
Knowing what to do is probably 95% of it, but to get to the level of the best racers you really have to be a good athlete as well and be in tip top shape. I'm a fat old man who can whip the crap out of a lot of good athlete whipper snappers on a motorcycle but there certainly are many that are way better than myself, but you don't find too many fat/old ones in that group. I don't recall the last time I saw an old fat MotoGP rider. At least not one that would be competitive. :)
 
#15 ·
I never even knew there were feelers on the pegs. Sorry if this is stupid, but: what sensation should i expect: subtle, abrupt? I think i know every situation and turn is different, but should i expect to stay up as long as those arent touching? And yes, i know i probably qont be able to go out there tmrw and hit those feelers.
 
#24 ·
I never even knew there were feelers on the pegs. Sorry if this is stupid, but: what sensation should i expect: subtle, abrupt? I think i know every situation and turn is different, but should i expect to stay up as long as those arent touching? And yes, i know i probably qont be able to go out there tmrw and hit those feelers.
Not all foot pegs have feelers, take a look at yours. If you see a nub on the bottom you have them. If not you don't.
Either way most stock pegs are hinged, when you get to the pegs (in my case) I heard metal grinding there wasn't an issue with the bike just a new noise that freaked me out a little.

Do you mind linking me which Twist of the Wrist youre talking about when you get a chance?


I guess more time on my bike is going to get me more comfortable. Its new to me. So im obviously gonna need to find out at what speeds i can take these at and become more confident that i wont go down when i lean.

I thought rain was extinct in The Bay Area. It hasnt rained here in years. Now these last couple of months, its been raining hard, nonstop. It sucks, cuz i wanna get out there. I guess i still can in the rain. But not at this point.
You hit the nail on the head, yes more seat time will make you more comfortable.
My point for the track day and coaches are, you don't have most of the variables you have to deal with on the street. Cars with drivers not paying attention, most tracks are wider than the street.
None have sand or crap that could cause you to loose traction.
Solid objects like street signs, telephone poles, tree's that hurt if you if you meet them.
Having a trained person watching you and suggesting techniques that you can then go out and tray.
Keep one thing in mind, the first couple of hours after the first rain the streets are like ice with all the oil left by cars washing off the road.
So take it easy if you ever get rain.
Lastly I drove in the Bay area, lane splitting is the norm there. Knowing how to brake properly is essential.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I was bored and I don't recall ever seeing a good picture explaining the left vs right on highway riding so I decided to do a little math and create an image. Imagine back road twisty riding and coming on this set of corners. It shows that when you negotiate those corners in either direction you're spending almost 10% more time leaned to the left than the right:



Now larger radius corners the percentage would drop. My example is has very tight radius corners (probably around a 20mph recommended I would guess). Actually on the right handers in my example the recommended speed would be lower than the right handers, even though they are the same corner. You would have to go faster on the left handers than you would on the right handers to maintain the same lean angle.

There is even a big difference in turning right and left at stoplights in the city (this one is not my drawing):

 
#22 ·
I guess more time on my bike is going to get me more comfortable. Its new to me. So im obviously gonna need to find out at what speeds i can take these at and become more confident that i wont go down when i lean.

I thought rain was extinct in The Bay Area. It hasnt rained here in years. Now these last couple of months, its been raining hard, nonstop. It sucks, cuz i wanna get out there. I guess i still can in the rain. But not at this point.
 
#25 ·
Another thing to add, which is by no means right or wrong, but simply from my personal observations of teaching many beginners how to ride in my MSF classes....I have yet to discover a correlation to anything as far as which side people prefer. As I said, I ask this of everyone that goes through my classes, and although I didn't put all the data in an excel spreadsheet, I've made mental notes about it. Ball park numbers...I would say I've had about 5% that say they're indifferent to which side they lean on and can do both equally as well. The remainder are split almost evenly between people that feel more comfortable on the left vs ones that feel more comfortable on the right. Keep in mind these are mostly people that had little to no experience at all.

Naturally, at first I thought it has something to do with being left-handed or right-handed, but that wasn't the case. I've seen every possible combination, and have not been able to make any conclusion as to why some people prefer lefts over rights, or vice versa. My guess is there's a lot more to it deep inside how the brain works which is well beyond me. But it's similar to other things/actions that generally people can only do on one side.

For example, I'm right handed, and I'm generally pretty freakin worthless when it comes to doing anything that involves my left hand or left hand. However, interestingly enough there are things that I can pretty much only do with the left hand or foot, or at least things that I do much better that way. Thing for example on activities that require the use of both hands, and then doing them in reverse. As a right-handed guy, I can't shoot a bow or a rifle left-handed to save my life, even though the process should be exactly the same. Hold with one hand, pull trigger/release string with the other hand. Should be simple right?? For whatever that reason is, I imagine it's the same with riding a motorcycle, where turning left should be exactly the same as turning right except that what your legs and hands are doing, are now done by the opposite limbs. Perhaps someone with better understanding of neurology would have more insight.

However, the point is that even though you're better at it with the left or the right side, the weak side can always be trained with practice. As a right-footed soccer player, I could never kick the ball with my left foot. I was worthless at it. Pretty much the only thing my left foot was used for in soccer was running. However, I specifically practiced kicking with the left and ball control with the left foot and in time I got better. Never quite as good as with the right, but made a HUGE improvement. Same thing can be done with taking turns on a motorcycle. If you have to, go in a big empty parking lot and keep practicing right hand turns.
 
#28 ·
Would anybody agree this as a good starting point:

Im going to get out there tmrw and just concentrate on rolling my throttle and keeping it absolutely steady throughout the turn.

Is countersteering something i should almost over exaggerate when cornering? Or should that come naturally.
 
#36 ·
OP, I have felt like you are feeling. You are unsure about the bike's traction, you think that if you lean it could slide out from under you. For me, mentally knowing what SHOULD work went a long way to allowing me to relax knowing that what I was doing was well inside the bounds of the machine's capabilities.

Let me say this: In the absence of debris/oil/gravel/paint/rain, if you are not over braking/over throttle, and you have decent body position, your bike will lean and hold the pavement until the footpegs touch.

For sure, don't go out and try to get the footpegs down. Don't try to get knee down. It's so much further than you think that you'll be FLYING through corners before you ever get close on those contact points. However, what you should realize is this: as long as your throttle is smooth, not choppy on or off, and you don't over brake approaching a turn, you can be confident that if you look exactly where you want to go, tip in smoothly, you WILL go through the turn.

Your bike is not going to drop you unless you A) hit gravel at lean B)break the front loose by heavy front brake in a turn C) break the rear loose with excessive rear brake in a turn D) break the rear loose by excessive throttle in/exiting a turn E) abrupt bar input in a turn attempting to adjust your path or stand the bike up F) upset the bike by chopping throttle mid turn. The last is the most common I see in new riders in a turn.

I'm sure someone will correct a point I over generalized, but for me, realizing that the bike is far more capable than my feelings were initially comfortable with gave me the confidence to smoothly work up to the level I'm at now.
 
#37 ·
Thanks for helping me out. Alot of what you said is helping me out just by reading it.

I have a quick question. When you said: make sure im not overbreaking before the turn. I think im following what youre saying...as in: stay smooth, right.

Then you go on to say: dont front break or rear brake hard in turns. My next question would be: i shouldnt brake at all when im in the middle of turning, right?
 
#40 ·
^^ to build on the above comment..... when you apply the front brake, you need to give the suspension time to react to that before you give it all you can.

Maximum braking occurs when the maximum weight is on the front wheel, pushing the tire into the pavement...... to get there, the front suspension has to compress, which takes a small amount of time.

If you suddenly stab at the front brake, the amount of force you can put on the wheel can stop it nearly instantly -- when it starts skidding, you aren't compressing the fork any more. You will lose some or all of the traction you had.

When you train yourself to squeeze the lever over 1/2 a second or longer to reach maximum lever pressure, you will increase your stopping power significantly.
 
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